4 ms·

> Of course it comes with plenty of western/foreign capitalist sabotage conspiracies thrown in to justify why their grand economic experiment didn't work. An e

by fao_ 7y ago

> Of course it comes with plenty of western/foreign capitalist sabotage conspiracies thrown in to justify why their grand economic experiment didn't work. An economy cannot work without foreign trade, being blocked from that by a major player essentially does that. If you look at communist countries that are small enough to be self-sufficient, it tells a different story. Take Cuba, it is blocked from trade with the US and a fair chunk of other countries, however, Cuba is self-sufficient enough that it has not only survived but it has flourished, with a ridiculously high literacy rate, and a universal public health system that puts much of the world to shame. I have but two observations left to make. 1. If the communist system was inherently a fail-state, then the US would have to do nothing but sit back and wait until it collapses. Instead of that they try relentlessly to sabotage any form of it. They tried, for example, over 600 times to assasinate the leader of Cuba. It's a real shame because it forces the communist parties to be anti-free-press, and anti-free-speech because of the risk of foreign countries abusing that to seed a revolution (Indeed, it was admitted on record that the only reason the CIA hasn't done that in Cuba is because it lacks resources, and Cuba doesn't allow full internet access (as I understand it)). 2. It took over 800 years to establish a stable republic. That doesn't mean that it could not be done, or that the republic was an inherently broken system, but it took a number of 'failures' to make a success, and the right political and societal advancements to be made.

llamaz 7y ago
just because you don't agree with something shouldn't be a reason to downvote
- refurb 7y ago
  True, but if people are posting erroneous information, you can understandably want to downvote.
  - llamaz 7y ago
    what erroneous information is he providing? That communism isn't necessarily destined to fail? That's a matter of opinion. I don't support cuba or leninism, but I just don't see anything controversial with what the parent has said, whether you are left or right wing.
  - llamaz 7y ago
    please downvote this post too, to really teach me a lesson and defend democracy and freedom.
  - fao_ 7y ago
    If someone is earnestly posting incorrect information, you should reply with a counter-argument, or upvote one that exists. Otherwise what you're doing is the exact opposite of being conductive to a dialogue, which is the entire point of the hacker news comment section. Sure, downvote people who are being disingenuous, or not being honest. Also: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. So far, everyone has responded to my talking about Cuba, an example I picked off the top of my head as a simple demonstration (It's a shame that America cannot boast such scores in education and health, to be honest). The example was illustrative, something mentioned off-hand to solidify and strengthen a point. Nobody responded to the core of my argument, which was the more meatier part and harder to disagree with. My central point, however "An economy cannot work without foreign trade, being blocked from that by a major player essentially does that" is supported by economists literally everywhere. In fact, it's one of the major reasons why a trade embargo is created in the first place, to suffocate a country and cause a regime change: "By far, regime change is the most frequent foreign policy objective of economic sanctions, accounting for 80 out of the 204 observations." - Economic Sanctions Reconsidered (3 ed.) -- Hufbauer, Schott, Elliott, Oegg
asveikau 7y ago
Has anyone considered that there are some things the state does well and others that it does poorly? Health care and education are two areas where the public sector and public control does well. Groceries are one where it does poorly.
- hkai 7y ago
  I wasn't aware that state healthcare and state education works well. A few examples of state healthcare systems in Soviet Union / Russia, UK, Hong Kong or Thailand seem to show that state healthcare is a miserable failure and those who are able to get access to private healthcare will always prefer it. Similar with schools, it appears that people strongly prefer private schools to government schools, even in places where private schools are quite ordinary, not just for the elites, and don't require expensive tuition - competing with government schools for the same kids.
  - fao_ 7y ago
    > seem to show that state healthcare is a miserable failure and those who are able to get access to private healthcare will always prefer it. The reason why the healthcare system in the UK is failing, is because of a multi-fold problem that is too numerous to describe here, but boils down to political sabotage. Two other main reasons come to my mind: One, privatization and outsourcing has caused mismanagement that expanded healthcare delays to an untenable point. Two, to 'repair' the 'failing' NHS, a 'target' system was set up. Hospitals that fail to meet targets have money taken from them, which causes a vicious circle whereby underperforming hospitals do not have the resources to perform better. See: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-health-service-healthcare-privatisation-a7160771.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... and https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1848.full https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1848.full Also, as I understand it, the privatization of the USSR's state healthcare system made things _worse_. The OECD reported[28] that unfortunately, none of this has worked out as planned and the reforms have in many respects made the system worse. The population’s health has deteriorated on virtually every measure. Though this is by no means all due to the changes in health care structures, the reforms have proven to be woefully inadequate at meeting the needs of the nation. Private health care delivery has not managed to make many inroads and public provision of health care still predominates. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#Reform_in_1991%E2%80%931993 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#Reform_in...)
adventured 7y ago
Cuba isn't flourishing, they're entering the first stages of food deprivation right now. They've required large state sponsorship, previously by the USSR, and more recently by Venezuela, to keep from system collapse. The average income in Cuba is still close to $20 per month. May 2019 "Cuba launches widespread rationing in face of crisis" https://www.apnews.com/42b62f24be9b4e0d9f764f1a3fa9647a https://www.apnews.com/42b62f24be9b4e0d9f764f1a3fa9647a This near starvation problem isn't anything new. The same thing happened when Cuba's last sponsor, the USSR, went under. 1994 "Millions of Cubans facing starvation: Hunger is fuelling an exodus of desperate refugees, writes Phil Davison from Havana" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-1417691.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-...
- fao_ 7y ago
  You're referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period#Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period#Famine From quotes like: Cuba's history of colonization included deforestation and overuse of its agricultural land. Before the crisis, Cuba used more pesticides than the U.S. Lack of fertiliser and agricultural machinery caused a shift towards organic farming and urban farming. Cuba still has food rationing for basic staples. Approximately 69% of these rationed basic staples (wheat, vegetable oils, rice, etc.) are imported.[18] Overall, however, approximately 16% of food is imported from abroad.[18] and Diaz said importing food from U.S. producers had become more complicated under Trump, forcing Cuba to search for products that were more expensive and difficult to import. it is pretty obvious that the US allowing Cuba to trade with the rest of the world would more or less 'solve' those problems.
  - JackFr 7y ago
    Who is the United States stopping from trading with Cuba?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

by fao_ 7y ago

llamaz 7y ago

just because you don't agree with something shouldn't be a reason to downvote

refurb 7y ago
True, but if people are posting erroneous information, you can understandably want to downvote.
- llamaz 7y ago
  what erroneous information is he providing? That communism isn't necessarily destined to fail? That's a matter of opinion. I don't support cuba or leninism, but I just don't see anything controversial with what the parent has said, whether you are left or right wing.
- llamaz 7y ago
  please downvote this post too, to really teach me a lesson and defend democracy and freedom.
- fao_ 7y ago
  If someone is earnestly posting incorrect information, you should reply with a counter-argument, or upvote one that exists. Otherwise what you're doing is the exact opposite of being conductive to a dialogue, which is the entire point of the hacker news comment section. Sure, downvote people who are being disingenuous, or not being honest. Also: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. So far, everyone has responded to my talking about Cuba, an example I picked off the top of my head as a simple demonstration (It's a shame that America cannot boast such scores in education and health, to be honest). The example was illustrative, something mentioned off-hand to solidify and strengthen a point. Nobody responded to the core of my argument, which was the more meatier part and harder to disagree with. My central point, however "An economy cannot work without foreign trade, being blocked from that by a major player essentially does that" is supported by economists literally everywhere. In fact, it's one of the major reasons why a trade embargo is created in the first place, to suffocate a country and cause a regime change: "By far, regime change is the most frequent foreign policy objective of economic sanctions, accounting for 80 out of the 204 observations." - Economic Sanctions Reconsidered (3 ed.) -- Hufbauer, Schott, Elliott, Oegg

asveikau 7y ago

Has anyone considered that there are some things the state does well and others that it does poorly? Health care and education are two areas where the public sector and public control does well. Groceries are one where it does poorly.

hkai 7y ago
I wasn't aware that state healthcare and state education works well. A few examples of state healthcare systems in Soviet Union / Russia, UK, Hong Kong or Thailand seem to show that state healthcare is a miserable failure and those who are able to get access to private healthcare will always prefer it. Similar with schools, it appears that people strongly prefer private schools to government schools, even in places where private schools are quite ordinary, not just for the elites, and don't require expensive tuition - competing with government schools for the same kids.
- fao_ 7y ago
  > seem to show that state healthcare is a miserable failure and those who are able to get access to private healthcare will always prefer it. The reason why the healthcare system in the UK is failing, is because of a multi-fold problem that is too numerous to describe here, but boils down to political sabotage. Two other main reasons come to my mind: One, privatization and outsourcing has caused mismanagement that expanded healthcare delays to an untenable point. Two, to 'repair' the 'failing' NHS, a 'target' system was set up. Hospitals that fail to meet targets have money taken from them, which causes a vicious circle whereby underperforming hospitals do not have the resources to perform better. See: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-health-service-healthcare-privatisation-a7160771.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... and https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1848.full https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f1848.full Also, as I understand it, the privatization of the USSR's state healthcare system made things _worse_. The OECD reported[28] that unfortunately, none of this has worked out as planned and the reforms have in many respects made the system worse. The population’s health has deteriorated on virtually every measure. Though this is by no means all due to the changes in health care structures, the reforms have proven to be woefully inadequate at meeting the needs of the nation. Private health care delivery has not managed to make many inroads and public provision of health care still predominates. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#Reform_in_1991%E2%80%931993 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#Reform_in...)

adventured 7y ago

Cuba isn't flourishing, they're entering the first stages of food deprivation right now. They've required large state sponsorship, previously by the USSR, and more recently by Venezuela, to keep from system collapse. The average income in Cuba is still close to $20 per month. May 2019 "Cuba launches widespread rationing in face of crisis" https://www.apnews.com/42b62f24be9b4e0d9f764f1a3fa9647a https://www.apnews.com/42b62f24be9b4e0d9f764f1a3fa9647a This near starvation problem isn't anything new. The same thing happened when Cuba's last sponsor, the USSR, went under. 1994 "Millions of Cubans facing starvation: Hunger is fuelling an exodus of desperate refugees, writes Phil Davison from Havana" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-1417691.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-...

fao_ 7y ago
You're referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period#Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period#Famine From quotes like: Cuba's history of colonization included deforestation and overuse of its agricultural land. Before the crisis, Cuba used more pesticides than the U.S. Lack of fertiliser and agricultural machinery caused a shift towards organic farming and urban farming. Cuba still has food rationing for basic staples. Approximately 69% of these rationed basic staples (wheat, vegetable oils, rice, etc.) are imported.[18] Overall, however, approximately 16% of food is imported from abroad.[18] and Diaz said importing food from U.S. producers had become more complicated under Trump, forcing Cuba to search for products that were more expensive and difficult to import. it is pretty obvious that the US allowing Cuba to trade with the rest of the world would more or less 'solve' those problems.
- JackFr 7y ago
  Who is the United States stopping from trading with Cuba?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]