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Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows? When ye say "great", I think ye me

Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows? When ye say "great", I think ye mean "the one I am familiar with".

TimTheTinker 7y ago
Since the introduction of Mac OS X, I've always thought of macOS in terms of a Venn diagram of two partially overlapping circles: (A) Operating systems that major desktop apps support (B) Developer-friendly operating systems (Unix/Linux at the core, default shell is bash or similar, etc.) Windows is in (A). Linux is in (B). But macOS is in the overlapping area between (A) and (B). It's the best of both worlds.
- everyone 7y ago
  (B) Web developer friendly. I am a game dev. I have no need for Unix.
  - dijit 7y ago
    You're in a bit of a niche though; gamedev is heavily slanted towards the microsoft ecosystem, and that might be changing depending on how Stadia is adopted. Source: myself, a gamedev for AAA titles.
    - everyone 7y ago
      Imo HN needs to be reminded as much as possible that not all of programming is web-apps. Its very common here in comments (and articles) for the two to be synonymous.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - dmitriid 7y ago
        Web and mobile are such a huge chunk of our everyday lives now though that I would dare say that everything else pales in comparison. And Apple has had the mindshare of that crowd for quite some time now. But... --- Personally, I despise working with both Windows and current generation of Linux desktops. They are clunky, inconsistent, cluttered etc. However, they are improving (albeit slowly sometimes) while Apple's "pro" offerings are degrading at an alarming rate. And with the impending advent of Marzipan we might see an exodus of pro users from MacOS.
        swiftcoder 7y ago
        What's the rationale behind Marzipan causing an exodus of pro users? Even if there were a flood of low-quality mobile apps onto the Mac... I don't see how that would reduce the availability of existing desktop-first apps.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        It would redefine the standard to which Mac apps would be held to.
        dmitriid 7y ago
        Broken windows theory. In case of Linux and Windows you can see their effort to improve things. Their failures and shortcomings stem from either decades of legacy (Windows) or lack of overarching vision and resources (Linux). Whereas MacOS... It has always been billed (and billed itself) as the UI/UX front runner. It was (or was trying to be) polished, consistent, good. Apple had Human Interface Guidelines in as early as 1987[1]. Apple was the definitive yardstick interfaces would be measured by. But in the recent year(s)... Apple has been consistently dropping the ball themselves. When their own first-party apps break almost every single HIG [2], how can one expect third-party developers to create quality apps. When their own third-party apps are locked in to landscape mode (iOS dashboard and iOS books interface), how can one expect third-party developers spend any significant amount of time creating seamless experiences across multiple screen sizes (and Apple’s own Marzipan apps like Newsstand and Home are barely ok at best). When your OS is no better than the competition, what’s to stop people from using the competition (which actually shows willingness to improve). [1] https://blog.prototypr.io/rediscovering-apples-human-interface-guidelines-1987-59731376b39e https://blog.prototypr.io/rediscovering-apples-human-interfa... [2] https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P
  - btgeekboy 7y ago
    Web, and mobile, and many types of enterprise. That’s quite a bit more development than games.
    - noisem4ker 7y ago
      Mobile and enterprise, you say? Android Studio and IntelliJ IDEA feel no more at home on Unix than they do on Windows. Same for MySQL and Oracle stuff. As for the Web, granted I only do occasional Angular development, I can also say I've never faced any limitation - not even considering the WSL compatibility layer.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    It's interesting that you describe a Unix/Linux development environment as web development friendly. Historically, the only relationship between the two was that a portion of the server/hosting market ran on Solaris and Linux boxes (and now, Linux servers and VMs). But that's not really why it became popular for web development. Since web development doesn't require a proprietary dev toolkit, it gravitated towards the platform that most naturally supports software development in general. And that happened to be Unix/Linux.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    I did web dev. Don't see how Linux would help me.
    - BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
      It really depends on what languages/frameworks you use. A lot of common languages have package support in the standard repos for Ubuntu-based distros, and the command line is more of a first-class citizen in Linux environments than in Windows or macOS.
      - lostmsu 7y ago
        The only feature in *sh, that is superior to PowerShell I know about is proliferation of parameter completion for tools. Otherwise it's the same git, cmake, etc I use everywhere, just a different language.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    Also embedded and high-performance computing developer friendly. Other areas where Linux is the #1 OS. MacOS isn't as suitable there.
- ducttape12 7y ago
  I've struggled with this idea - almost everything (outside Apple specific development) is ported to Windows. My work is in .NET and various Javascript frameworks. Never had a problem with Windows. Plus I feel if I really needed a Linux environment, the Linux subsystem would fill that need.
  - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
    Sketch is probably the single biggest seller of Mac's.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      I'd say it's probably Microsoft Office or Photoshop…
  - katbyte 7y ago
    > Plus I feel if I really needed a Linux environment, the Linux subsystem would fill that need. Have you actually used it? A bunch of devs I work with continually have issues relating to WSL so i'm not sure if its comparable to macOS.
    - owenwil 7y ago
      Early WSL was a pain, but they’ve come a long way. My entire web dev stack works natively on WSL these days–and WSL2 is due any day now, which should make it entirely on-par going forward.
      - wwweston 7y ago
        That's big news! Apparently any day now is by the end of June. Here's the announcement for anyone who (like me) hadn't already heard: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/announcing-wsl-2/ I'm a little skeptical given the shortcomings/difficulties I encountered last year, but a solid competitor to macOS as a unix workstation with broad desktop app support would be great to have.
omnimus 7y ago
Well it has decent window manager with multiple desktops, does not require antivirus and supports Adobe. For graphicdesign/developer there really arent many other choices. Also if you work with sound its hands down best OS.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  In what way is MacOS best for working with sound? The industry has long ago moved on to Windows.
  - copperx 7y ago
    Logic is superior in many ways to other DAWs. There are some hardcore Logic users out there.
    - everyone 7y ago
      I wouldnt say superior, Logic, Ableton, Reason, Cubase etc. They're all different, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Eg. Ableton has pretty crappy midi sequencing capabilities whereas Reason has probably the best. They all fit different use cases.
  - MaddAgent 7y ago
    I'm not so sure about that - I can't remember the last time I was in a studio that wasn't running macOS to be honest.
rayiner 7y ago
Windows is crap. The UI is totally schizoid, with different apps using different toolkits. Office for Mac integrates more cleanly into the look and feel of the rest of the OS than Office for Windows. There are two different settings apps with different features. Basic things are poorly designed. E.g. if you put the task bar in autohide mode, it routinely gets “stuck” because some notification is keeping it from hiding.
- fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
  Of course, electron is bringing this great fragmented ui experience to macOS
  - PascLeRasc 7y ago
    I'm curious which applications made you come to this conclusion. I've heard a lot of Electron criticism, and most of it is very valid, but I think Slack, Spotify, and Atom very much fit into the macOS UI environment.
    - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
      I have command-shift-u bound to “open selected url” this reliably works in cocoa apps and often doesn’t work in electron apps. EDIT: VS Code is the main place I run into this
      - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
        A ui is more than its appearance: the interaction model of electron apps is always slightly off from cocoa apps.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    Electron is a browser. So a huge chunk of things are native: keyboard support, inputs, dropdowns, context menus, menus, preference panes, popups, window chrome etc. And all this is available to developers out of the box. Very few "cross-platform UI toolkits" can come even close. That said, a fully native app would be a better option, but Electron apps are ok (unless devs go out of their way to make them bad)
caconym_ 7y ago
For me it's less about what's "so great" and more about what's not awful. I need a Unix-like command line environment and Windows is inferior there. Otherwise it's fine (I use it on my gaming machine), but if you look closely you can see it's a huge mess (e.g. the insane state of the control panel(s)) in ways Mac OS just isn't. Linux is too much work. I say this as someone who has used it for years, still uses it every day, I've compiled my own kernels, etc., but it's just too much work to get everything working perfectly on my personal machine, especially on a laptop. Mac OS doesn't have many of these problems. I am old, I have too much real work to do, and I need a machine that works and gets the fuck out of my way. I am past the point where I consider fiddling with the guts of my OS a badge of honor and think having a bunch of code up on my screen makes me look super cool like Neo from The Matrix. For people like me who don't need things it doesn't have and like what it does have, it's a good choice. Now if only Apple would stop making so many dumb hardware choices...
- cutler 7y ago
  Another feature that keeps me on OS X is the ease of imaging a system and booting from that image. Also target disk mode - I've yet to see anything that comes close in Windows or Linux but I admit I'm a bit out of touch.
- phren0logy 7y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree. I'll add, though, that due to some recent work in deep learning I started running Pop_OS 19.04. Other than the stupid name, it's actually been surprisingly great at doing everything I need and staying out of the way without me having to fiddle with it. I can run steam, skype, zoom, and everything but office as easily as on any other os. Overall polish is not to Mac level, but it's a smidge above Windows 10. Which is about 100x better than my prior experiences with desktop linux.
WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
There's some neat features in the OS for developers but you can do the same thing with a Linux machine.

Lots of people on HN call the Mac OS 'great' ... But why? What is so great about it that is not similar on Linux or Windows? When ye say "great", I think ye mean "the one I am familiar with".

TimTheTinker 7y ago

Since the introduction of Mac OS X, I've always thought of macOS in terms of a Venn diagram of two partially overlapping circles: (A) Operating systems that major desktop apps support (B) Developer-friendly operating systems (Unix/Linux at the core, default shell is bash or similar, etc.) Windows is in (A). Linux is in (B). But macOS is in the overlapping area between (A) and (B). It's the best of both worlds.

everyone 7y ago
(B) Web developer friendly. I am a game dev. I have no need for Unix.
- dijit 7y ago
  You're in a bit of a niche though; gamedev is heavily slanted towards the microsoft ecosystem, and that might be changing depending on how Stadia is adopted. Source: myself, a gamedev for AAA titles.
  - everyone 7y ago
    Imo HN needs to be reminded as much as possible that not all of programming is web-apps. Its very common here in comments (and articles) for the two to be synonymous.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      Web and mobile are such a huge chunk of our everyday lives now though that I would dare say that everything else pales in comparison. And Apple has had the mindshare of that crowd for quite some time now. But... --- Personally, I despise working with both Windows and current generation of Linux desktops. They are clunky, inconsistent, cluttered etc. However, they are improving (albeit slowly sometimes) while Apple's "pro" offerings are degrading at an alarming rate. And with the impending advent of Marzipan we might see an exodus of pro users from MacOS.
      - swiftcoder 7y ago
        What's the rationale behind Marzipan causing an exodus of pro users? Even if there were a flood of low-quality mobile apps onto the Mac... I don't see how that would reduce the availability of existing desktop-first apps.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        It would redefine the standard to which Mac apps would be held to.
        dmitriid 7y ago
        Broken windows theory. In case of Linux and Windows you can see their effort to improve things. Their failures and shortcomings stem from either decades of legacy (Windows) or lack of overarching vision and resources (Linux). Whereas MacOS... It has always been billed (and billed itself) as the UI/UX front runner. It was (or was trying to be) polished, consistent, good. Apple had Human Interface Guidelines in as early as 1987[1]. Apple was the definitive yardstick interfaces would be measured by. But in the recent year(s)... Apple has been consistently dropping the ball themselves. When their own first-party apps break almost every single HIG [2], how can one expect third-party developers to create quality apps. When their own third-party apps are locked in to landscape mode (iOS dashboard and iOS books interface), how can one expect third-party developers spend any significant amount of time creating seamless experiences across multiple screen sizes (and Apple’s own Marzipan apps like Newsstand and Home are barely ok at best). When your OS is no better than the competition, what’s to stop people from using the competition (which actually shows willingness to improve). [1] https://blog.prototypr.io/rediscovering-apples-human-interface-guidelines-1987-59731376b39e https://blog.prototypr.io/rediscovering-apples-human-interfa... [2] https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P
- btgeekboy 7y ago
  Web, and mobile, and many types of enterprise. That’s quite a bit more development than games.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
    Mobile and enterprise, you say? Android Studio and IntelliJ IDEA feel no more at home on Unix than they do on Windows. Same for MySQL and Oracle stuff. As for the Web, granted I only do occasional Angular development, I can also say I've never faced any limitation - not even considering the WSL compatibility layer.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  It's interesting that you describe a Unix/Linux development environment as web development friendly. Historically, the only relationship between the two was that a portion of the server/hosting market ran on Solaris and Linux boxes (and now, Linux servers and VMs). But that's not really why it became popular for web development. Since web development doesn't require a proprietary dev toolkit, it gravitated towards the platform that most naturally supports software development in general. And that happened to be Unix/Linux.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  I did web dev. Don't see how Linux would help me.
  - BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
    It really depends on what languages/frameworks you use. A lot of common languages have package support in the standard repos for Ubuntu-based distros, and the command line is more of a first-class citizen in Linux environments than in Windows or macOS.
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      The only feature in *sh, that is superior to PowerShell I know about is proliferation of parameter completion for tools. Otherwise it's the same git, cmake, etc I use everywhere, just a different language.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  Also embedded and high-performance computing developer friendly. Other areas where Linux is the #1 OS. MacOS isn't as suitable there.
ducttape12 7y ago
I've struggled with this idea - almost everything (outside Apple specific development) is ported to Windows. My work is in .NET and various Javascript frameworks. Never had a problem with Windows. Plus I feel if I really needed a Linux environment, the Linux subsystem would fill that need.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  Sketch is probably the single biggest seller of Mac's.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I'd say it's probably Microsoft Office or Photoshop…
- katbyte 7y ago
  > Plus I feel if I really needed a Linux environment, the Linux subsystem would fill that need. Have you actually used it? A bunch of devs I work with continually have issues relating to WSL so i'm not sure if its comparable to macOS.
  - owenwil 7y ago
    Early WSL was a pain, but they’ve come a long way. My entire web dev stack works natively on WSL these days–and WSL2 is due any day now, which should make it entirely on-par going forward.
    - wwweston 7y ago
      That's big news! Apparently any day now is by the end of June. Here's the announcement for anyone who (like me) hadn't already heard: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/announcing-wsl-2/ I'm a little skeptical given the shortcomings/difficulties I encountered last year, but a solid competitor to macOS as a unix workstation with broad desktop app support would be great to have.

omnimus 7y ago

Well it has decent window manager with multiple desktops, does not require antivirus and supports Adobe. For graphicdesign/developer there really arent many other choices. Also if you work with sound its hands down best OS.

stallmanite 7y ago
In what way is MacOS best for working with sound? The industry has long ago moved on to Windows.
- copperx 7y ago
  Logic is superior in many ways to other DAWs. There are some hardcore Logic users out there.
  - everyone 7y ago
    I wouldnt say superior, Logic, Ableton, Reason, Cubase etc. They're all different, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Eg. Ableton has pretty crappy midi sequencing capabilities whereas Reason has probably the best. They all fit different use cases.
- MaddAgent 7y ago
  I'm not so sure about that - I can't remember the last time I was in a studio that wasn't running macOS to be honest.

rayiner 7y ago

Windows is crap. The UI is totally schizoid, with different apps using different toolkits. Office for Mac integrates more cleanly into the look and feel of the rest of the OS than Office for Windows. There are two different settings apps with different features. Basic things are poorly designed. E.g. if you put the task bar in autohide mode, it routinely gets “stuck” because some notification is keeping it from hiding.

fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
Of course, electron is bringing this great fragmented ui experience to macOS
- PascLeRasc 7y ago
  I'm curious which applications made you come to this conclusion. I've heard a lot of Electron criticism, and most of it is very valid, but I think Slack, Spotify, and Atom very much fit into the macOS UI environment.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
    I have command-shift-u bound to “open selected url” this reliably works in cocoa apps and often doesn’t work in electron apps. EDIT: VS Code is the main place I run into this
    - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
      A ui is more than its appearance: the interaction model of electron apps is always slightly off from cocoa apps.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  Electron is a browser. So a huge chunk of things are native: keyboard support, inputs, dropdowns, context menus, menus, preference panes, popups, window chrome etc. And all this is available to developers out of the box. Very few "cross-platform UI toolkits" can come even close. That said, a fully native app would be a better option, but Electron apps are ok (unless devs go out of their way to make them bad)

caconym_ 7y ago

For me it's less about what's "so great" and more about what's not awful. I need a Unix-like command line environment and Windows is inferior there. Otherwise it's fine (I use it on my gaming machine), but if you look closely you can see it's a huge mess (e.g. the insane state of the control panel(s)) in ways Mac OS just isn't. Linux is too much work. I say this as someone who has used it for years, still uses it every day, I've compiled my own kernels, etc., but it's just too much work to get everything working perfectly on my personal machine, especially on a laptop. Mac OS doesn't have many of these problems. I am old, I have too much real work to do, and I need a machine that works and gets the fuck out of my way. I am past the point where I consider fiddling with the guts of my OS a badge of honor and think having a bunch of code up on my screen makes me look super cool like Neo from The Matrix. For people like me who don't need things it doesn't have and like what it does have, it's a good choice. Now if only Apple would stop making so many dumb hardware choices...

cutler 7y ago
Another feature that keeps me on OS X is the ease of imaging a system and booting from that image. Also target disk mode - I've yet to see anything that comes close in Windows or Linux but I admit I'm a bit out of touch.
phren0logy 7y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. I'll add, though, that due to some recent work in deep learning I started running Pop_OS 19.04. Other than the stupid name, it's actually been surprisingly great at doing everything I need and staying out of the way without me having to fiddle with it. I can run steam, skype, zoom, and everything but office as easily as on any other os. Overall polish is not to Mac level, but it's a smidge above Windows 10. Which is about 100x better than my prior experiences with desktop linux.

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago

There's some neat features in the OS for developers but you can do the same thing with a Linux machine.