9 ms·

I know people who genuinely believe that people in countries with socialized medicine have to wait months to see a doctor

asdf21 7y ago
... Because that's true, depending on the situation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-universal-health-care-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canada/#27492adb78d5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-uni... >The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.
- luckydata 7y ago
  It's true in the bay area to see an ENT doctor too. So your point is?
  - ameister14 7y ago
    The average wait to see a specialist across the US is closer to 24 days, the longest it's ever been - the average in Canada is 21 weeks, also the longest recorded.
    - luckydata 7y ago
      since you seem to have the data handy, could you check what's the average number of people filing for bankruptcy for medical reasons in Canada vs. the US per year?
- forkandwait 7y ago
  It's also true in the US, depending on the situation. And if you are lucky enough to have insurance and see a doctor at all.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- sriram_sun 7y ago
  I had Kaiser. A month-and-a-half to see a specialist. Any specialist appointment - Heart or Brain is easily 2- 3 months out.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I think it depends on the area. I have Kaiser now, in the Silicon Valley, and I've never waited more than a day for a specialist. Oftentimes I can even go in the same visit as my GP after he refers me. I think it's the same in Canada. In some areas there are no waits and in other areas there are long waits. I think they need to look at percentiles to get a more accurate measure.
    - sriram_sun 7y ago
      I'm in SoCal. Similar wait times for HMO.
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      How does that work? Is the specialist sitting there with no patients, waiting for a call?
      - jedberg 7y ago
        It seems that way. When I use the online booking tool they tend to have gaps.
      - Alex63 7y ago
        First, understand that there isn't really a Canadian federal health care system. The Canadian government (federal) transfers funds to the provinces, which operate health plans for provincial residents. The provincial health plans control the number of available specialists. A health care provider can only bill the provincial plan if they have a billing number, and the provincial plans manage billing numbers to limit/encourage specialists and to make sure doctors provide services in less populous areas. I don't know if it's still the case, but historically there was no private alternative available (so doctors couldn't operate a private practice that didn't need a billing number from the provincial plan). If provinces chose to allow private practices, the federal government threatened to withhold funds from the plan. As with most western democracies, Canadian doctors are well compensated in comparison to the rest of society. But it is generally understood that they can make more money in the US if they qualify for immigration (and many can because of rules allowing people with specialist skills to get immigrant visas). This also contributes to reduced supply of specialists, and longer waiting times. To get to see one of the available specialists in Canada, you have to have a referral from a primary care provider. Here in the US (in my experience) a referral is as simple as saying to your GP, "I want to see a cardiologist." Then your GP says "Oh, sure, this one's very good. I'll refer you." In Canada, your GP has to follow plan guidelines for referrals, and confirm that it is warranted. Then you get on the waiting list for the specialist. You'll wait for a consultation. At the consultation the specialist will determine whether or not you need treatment, and the urgency. Then you go on the waiting list for treatment. Of course, Canadians with the financial resources are free to travel to other countries to obtain medical treatment more quickly. The provincial medical plans do not pay for treatments obtained outside of Canada. Medical "tourism" is not that unusual, including travel to the US and other countries.
- vkou 7y ago
  In the capitalist paradise of the United States, as I sit here, covered by top-of-the-line health insurance... My wife needed 3 months to schedule a sleep doctor appointment, 3 months to schedule a minimally-invasive surgery (That manages to bill her, and the insurer wrong), and every time she needs a re-fill of her prescriptions, it's a complete fucking crap-shoot of whether or not: 1. The manufacturer managed to produce enough pills to fill its orders. 2. The pharmacy bothers to call her, to notify that the prescriptions are in. 3. That the prescriptions are actually in, and that she didn't waste her time walking to the grocery store. Meanwhile, on my side of things, I end up watching my insurance get billed $750 for 5 minutes of a doctor's (And 15 minutes of his assistant's) time. This is truly the most humanitarian, efficient, and accountable medical system on the face of the planet. > Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. The term you're looking for is 'Non-life-threatening'.
  - bshipp 7y ago
    That has been my experience. I've walked into an ER twice with heart palpitations. The first time I had an EKG, chest x-ray, and specialist consult and was in and out within 45 minutes. The second time was more serious and I was admitted, treated, seen by a cardiologist, and sent to a cardiac ward for overnight monitoring without being taken off the gurney. I know people who have walked in to their GP to investigate a lump in their breast and been under the knife a week later. They don't mess around with serious time-sensitive stuff. But I have heard that the wait time for old people who need hip or knee replacements is quite excessive.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. This is nowhere close to being true. Patients frequently demand treatment that the doctor, left to his own devices, wouldn't give. My least favorite example of this comes from China, where people will go to the hospital to get intravenous saline solution for a common cold, but it's ubiquitous everywhere including the US.
- numakerg 7y ago
  >This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured. Why? Are there more sick people? Are there fewer doctors and resourced? I've seen many articles covering the issue, but nothing that provides a concrete explanation for why a system used to work but doesn't anymore.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    > Are there more sick people? Yes, mainly due to an ageing population and partly due to obesity. An increasingly old and obese population needs more healthcare and is more complicated and expensive to treat.
  - yourduskquibble 7y ago
    Economic incentives (or lack there of) under socialism. There's too much demand for the supply at the price established ("free").
    - fao_ 7y ago
      I don't think this is quite true. And if I were to accept it as a hypothetical, what you are saying is that if too many people need to see a specialist, many of them should outright not be able to because they do not have enough resources. Which is ethically horrific.
      - yourduskquibble 7y ago
        No I'm saying the supply is artificially constrained by the price of "free" so there is less incentive to go into medicine, hence shortages at the price demanded.
        jimmaswell 7y ago
        Are you insinuiating doctors work for free in these countries?
luckydata 7y ago
I scheduled in February to see an ENT in July. I live in California, Bay Area, and seeing a specialist in this area SUCKS. Socialized medicine?
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  In Alabama and Georgia I've never waited more than a week to see an ENT and sometimes have even gotten a same day appointment. These things seem to vary quite a bit by region.
- burlesona 7y ago
  I’ve also had long waits in the Bay Area, but haven’t elsewhere in the US (NC, IL, TX).
protomyth 7y ago
I’ll believe in socialized medicine in the US when they fix Indian Health Service. Until that day, if the politicians cannot come up with a decent system for a small part of the population then they cannot for everyone. Heck, it only took three operations to fix a botched root canal, and I considered myself lucky.
jdietrich 7y ago
Here in the UK, I have to wait about three weeks for a GP appointment. The NHS target for routine appointments with a specialist is 18 weeks, but that target is habitually missed. Routine surgeries are frequently postponed due to a lack of capacity. Many treatments are unavailable due to a lack of funding. We do spend less than half as much on healthcare per capita than the US and we have better health outcomes by most measures, but it's very much a no-frills system.
- mrguyorama 7y ago
  My understanding is that the NHS is also suffering due to being massively gutted by conservative(?) politicians
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    It's a tricky issue, the NHS is probably understaffed and underfunded but also extremely expensive already. Massively gutted isn't really true: Spending ( % GDP) has decreased but levels are still at record absolute spending Nurses are to the UK what Soldiers are to the US, any criticism of the NHS is effectively shot down as Capitalist propaganda. There are some serious questions to be asked about the NHS, which arguably cannot be answered (Even if the result is staying with the status quo) due to an extremely sceptical and anti-capitalist left wing.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  We(UK) actually rank relatively poorly in terms of healthcare outcomes compared to (notably) the US. The only measures we rank highly on are those weighting access as well as outcome
SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
It's true. I needed to get an MRI in Canada. The doctor said it wasn't necessary and even if I was put on the queue, it would be 9 months. I asked to see a neurologist. The wait? At least 6 months, absolute minimum. I moved to the US. When the doctor told me the wait would be a couple weeks and to call back if I was having issues, I laughed. I was amazed. And the MRI was absolutely necessary.
- mjevans 7y ago
  You had good healthcare coverage in the US; that's not normal. Having said that: (more) better doctors and (more) cheep MRI machines would really help.
  - ultrarunner 7y ago
    Speaking of more MRI machines, Certificate of Need laws just might be one of those simple facts that would spur anger if commonly known.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      Maybe. They exist because they line up with lots of people's intuition about economics though.
  - tlear 7y ago
    You don't need coverage for MRI, as Canadian there is whole industry near border dedicated to servicing Canadian on wait lists. You drive over border, get MRI done(tomorrow), then get a dvd with results. Done. Cost is less then a $1000cdn vs waiting for 3 month Same for some kinds of surgeries. Friend was bounced around in TO for a year he needed some knee reconstruction. He could walk but nothing else but it was not a priority.. So drove over border, had consultation, drove week later and had it done. I am not sure what it cost, but he is not rich, typical sysadmin job
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
ryguytilidie 7y ago
I had a super weird one. I worked for a startup with a British CTO who was very Republican and would constantly rail against poor people and talk about how the NHS killed people and made them wait months. I was like, wait, you lived there, experienced the opposite of what you're saying and STILL manage to make up lies to make it sound bad? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?!
markdog12 7y ago
That's because it is genuine. Take it from a Canadian who has had to wait many months multiple times for MRIs. Right now I have a tear in my hip joint that needs an MRI, been waiting since November, still nothing. Meanwhile I'm yelping in pain when I try to stand up from sitting down. Here's a Canadian woman with cancer that went undiagnosed for 2 years because she couldn't access a family doctor: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-video-1.5110684 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-... Note that she also tried to get access to mental health services to cope, in January, and has to wait until the summer. Health care access is one of the major issues in Canada right now.
- zukzuk 7y ago
  These situations are rare despite what the occasional outrage-inducing news story would have you believe. Here in Ontario for example, the average wait time for urgent patients is 1 day, for high-priority (target 10 days) it's 15 days, and for low priority (target 28 days) it was 58 days. Detailed, up-to-date stats for this are available at https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-Diagnostic-Imaging?utm_source=Ontario.ca&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=WT%20Referral&utm_content=AnchorLink#trendovertime https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-D...
  - RandomBacon 7y ago
    As bad as it is in the US, I can get seen the same day or next day. I had a thrombosed hemroid, I called and got an apointment the next day with a specialist. He confirmed my diagnosis and I got surgery to drain and remove it the following day. Only cost me less than 200 dollars after insurance. I had a bump on my testicle. I was concerned about cancer, so I see my regular doctor. $20 copay and he said it was just a blood something. I wanted to be sure, so he refered me and I got an ultrasound the same day at another facility. That only cost me a $100-something dollars after insurance. (It wasn't cancer.) Thrombosed hemroid where 95% of people treat it by soaking it in water daily? Probably low-priority, 58 days. Waiting 58 days for an ultrasound to see if you have cancer? Yeah, I'll keep the coverage/insurance that I have. I still understand the vast majority doesn't have it as good as I do and we still need to fix the system. I think we can bring people's standards up to what I experience, not down to what Canada experiences.
wtdata 7y ago
But we actually do as long is it's not a life treatning disease. As an example, I am now waiting 2 months to see my family doctor (I just need prescriptions for simple anti histamines, since it's cheaper that way), and 3 years to see a dermatologist for a routine check. On the other side, a member of my family unfortunately was diagnosed cancer about 3 weeks ago, and she had several medical appointments every week since then.

asdf21 7y ago

... Because that's true, depending on the situation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-universal-health-care-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canada/#27492adb78d5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-uni... >The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

luckydata 7y ago
It's true in the bay area to see an ENT doctor too. So your point is?
- ameister14 7y ago
  The average wait to see a specialist across the US is closer to 24 days, the longest it's ever been - the average in Canada is 21 weeks, also the longest recorded.
  - luckydata 7y ago
    since you seem to have the data handy, could you check what's the average number of people filing for bankruptcy for medical reasons in Canada vs. the US per year?
forkandwait 7y ago
It's also true in the US, depending on the situation. And if you are lucky enough to have insurance and see a doctor at all.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sriram_sun 7y ago
I had Kaiser. A month-and-a-half to see a specialist. Any specialist appointment - Heart or Brain is easily 2- 3 months out.
- jedberg 7y ago
  I think it depends on the area. I have Kaiser now, in the Silicon Valley, and I've never waited more than a day for a specialist. Oftentimes I can even go in the same visit as my GP after he refers me. I think it's the same in Canada. In some areas there are no waits and in other areas there are long waits. I think they need to look at percentiles to get a more accurate measure.
  - sriram_sun 7y ago
    I'm in SoCal. Similar wait times for HMO.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    How does that work? Is the specialist sitting there with no patients, waiting for a call?
    - jedberg 7y ago
      It seems that way. When I use the online booking tool they tend to have gaps.
    - Alex63 7y ago
      First, understand that there isn't really a Canadian federal health care system. The Canadian government (federal) transfers funds to the provinces, which operate health plans for provincial residents. The provincial health plans control the number of available specialists. A health care provider can only bill the provincial plan if they have a billing number, and the provincial plans manage billing numbers to limit/encourage specialists and to make sure doctors provide services in less populous areas. I don't know if it's still the case, but historically there was no private alternative available (so doctors couldn't operate a private practice that didn't need a billing number from the provincial plan). If provinces chose to allow private practices, the federal government threatened to withhold funds from the plan. As with most western democracies, Canadian doctors are well compensated in comparison to the rest of society. But it is generally understood that they can make more money in the US if they qualify for immigration (and many can because of rules allowing people with specialist skills to get immigrant visas). This also contributes to reduced supply of specialists, and longer waiting times. To get to see one of the available specialists in Canada, you have to have a referral from a primary care provider. Here in the US (in my experience) a referral is as simple as saying to your GP, "I want to see a cardiologist." Then your GP says "Oh, sure, this one's very good. I'll refer you." In Canada, your GP has to follow plan guidelines for referrals, and confirm that it is warranted. Then you get on the waiting list for the specialist. You'll wait for a consultation. At the consultation the specialist will determine whether or not you need treatment, and the urgency. Then you go on the waiting list for treatment. Of course, Canadians with the financial resources are free to travel to other countries to obtain medical treatment more quickly. The provincial medical plans do not pay for treatments obtained outside of Canada. Medical "tourism" is not that unusual, including travel to the US and other countries.
vkou 7y ago
In the capitalist paradise of the United States, as I sit here, covered by top-of-the-line health insurance... My wife needed 3 months to schedule a sleep doctor appointment, 3 months to schedule a minimally-invasive surgery (That manages to bill her, and the insurer wrong), and every time she needs a re-fill of her prescriptions, it's a complete fucking crap-shoot of whether or not: 1. The manufacturer managed to produce enough pills to fill its orders. 2. The pharmacy bothers to call her, to notify that the prescriptions are in. 3. That the prescriptions are actually in, and that she didn't waste her time walking to the grocery store. Meanwhile, on my side of things, I end up watching my insurance get billed $750 for 5 minutes of a doctor's (And 15 minutes of his assistant's) time. This is truly the most humanitarian, efficient, and accountable medical system on the face of the planet. > Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. The term you're looking for is 'Non-life-threatening'.
- bshipp 7y ago
  That has been my experience. I've walked into an ER twice with heart palpitations. The first time I had an EKG, chest x-ray, and specialist consult and was in and out within 45 minutes. The second time was more serious and I was admitted, treated, seen by a cardiologist, and sent to a cardiac ward for overnight monitoring without being taken off the gurney. I know people who have walked in to their GP to investigate a lump in their breast and been under the knife a week later. They don't mess around with serious time-sensitive stuff. But I have heard that the wait time for old people who need hip or knee replacements is quite excessive.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. This is nowhere close to being true. Patients frequently demand treatment that the doctor, left to his own devices, wouldn't give. My least favorite example of this comes from China, where people will go to the hospital to get intravenous saline solution for a common cold, but it's ubiquitous everywhere including the US.
numakerg 7y ago
>This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured. Why? Are there more sick people? Are there fewer doctors and resourced? I've seen many articles covering the issue, but nothing that provides a concrete explanation for why a system used to work but doesn't anymore.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  > Are there more sick people? Yes, mainly due to an ageing population and partly due to obesity. An increasingly old and obese population needs more healthcare and is more complicated and expensive to treat.
- yourduskquibble 7y ago
  Economic incentives (or lack there of) under socialism. There's too much demand for the supply at the price established ("free").
  - fao_ 7y ago
    I don't think this is quite true. And if I were to accept it as a hypothetical, what you are saying is that if too many people need to see a specialist, many of them should outright not be able to because they do not have enough resources. Which is ethically horrific.
    - yourduskquibble 7y ago
      No I'm saying the supply is artificially constrained by the price of "free" so there is less incentive to go into medicine, hence shortages at the price demanded.
      - jimmaswell 7y ago
        Are you insinuiating doctors work for free in these countries?

luckydata 7y ago

I scheduled in February to see an ENT in July. I live in California, Bay Area, and seeing a specialist in this area SUCKS. Socialized medicine?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
In Alabama and Georgia I've never waited more than a week to see an ENT and sometimes have even gotten a same day appointment. These things seem to vary quite a bit by region.
burlesona 7y ago
I’ve also had long waits in the Bay Area, but haven’t elsewhere in the US (NC, IL, TX).

protomyth 7y ago

I’ll believe in socialized medicine in the US when they fix Indian Health Service. Until that day, if the politicians cannot come up with a decent system for a small part of the population then they cannot for everyone. Heck, it only took three operations to fix a botched root canal, and I considered myself lucky.

jdietrich 7y ago

Here in the UK, I have to wait about three weeks for a GP appointment. The NHS target for routine appointments with a specialist is 18 weeks, but that target is habitually missed. Routine surgeries are frequently postponed due to a lack of capacity. Many treatments are unavailable due to a lack of funding. We do spend less than half as much on healthcare per capita than the US and we have better health outcomes by most measures, but it's very much a no-frills system.

mrguyorama 7y ago
My understanding is that the NHS is also suffering due to being massively gutted by conservative(?) politicians
- mhh__ 7y ago
  It's a tricky issue, the NHS is probably understaffed and underfunded but also extremely expensive already. Massively gutted isn't really true: Spending ( % GDP) has decreased but levels are still at record absolute spending Nurses are to the UK what Soldiers are to the US, any criticism of the NHS is effectively shot down as Capitalist propaganda. There are some serious questions to be asked about the NHS, which arguably cannot be answered (Even if the result is staying with the status quo) due to an extremely sceptical and anti-capitalist left wing.
mhh__ 7y ago
We(UK) actually rank relatively poorly in terms of healthcare outcomes compared to (notably) the US. The only measures we rank highly on are those weighting access as well as outcome

SpaceRaccoon 7y ago

It's true. I needed to get an MRI in Canada. The doctor said it wasn't necessary and even if I was put on the queue, it would be 9 months. I asked to see a neurologist. The wait? At least 6 months, absolute minimum. I moved to the US. When the doctor told me the wait would be a couple weeks and to call back if I was having issues, I laughed. I was amazed. And the MRI was absolutely necessary.

mjevans 7y ago
You had good healthcare coverage in the US; that's not normal. Having said that: (more) better doctors and (more) cheep MRI machines would really help.
- ultrarunner 7y ago
  Speaking of more MRI machines, Certificate of Need laws just might be one of those simple facts that would spur anger if commonly known.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    Maybe. They exist because they line up with lots of people's intuition about economics though.
- tlear 7y ago
  You don't need coverage for MRI, as Canadian there is whole industry near border dedicated to servicing Canadian on wait lists. You drive over border, get MRI done(tomorrow), then get a dvd with results. Done. Cost is less then a $1000cdn vs waiting for 3 month Same for some kinds of surgeries. Friend was bounced around in TO for a year he needed some knee reconstruction. He could walk but nothing else but it was not a priority.. So drove over border, had consultation, drove week later and had it done. I am not sure what it cost, but he is not rich, typical sysadmin job
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

ryguytilidie 7y ago

I had a super weird one. I worked for a startup with a British CTO who was very Republican and would constantly rail against poor people and talk about how the NHS killed people and made them wait months. I was like, wait, you lived there, experienced the opposite of what you're saying and STILL manage to make up lies to make it sound bad? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?!

markdog12 7y ago

That's because it is genuine. Take it from a Canadian who has had to wait many months multiple times for MRIs. Right now I have a tear in my hip joint that needs an MRI, been waiting since November, still nothing. Meanwhile I'm yelping in pain when I try to stand up from sitting down. Here's a Canadian woman with cancer that went undiagnosed for 2 years because she couldn't access a family doctor: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-video-1.5110684 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-... Note that she also tried to get access to mental health services to cope, in January, and has to wait until the summer. Health care access is one of the major issues in Canada right now.

zukzuk 7y ago
These situations are rare despite what the occasional outrage-inducing news story would have you believe. Here in Ontario for example, the average wait time for urgent patients is 1 day, for high-priority (target 10 days) it's 15 days, and for low priority (target 28 days) it was 58 days. Detailed, up-to-date stats for this are available at https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-Diagnostic-Imaging?utm_source=Ontario.ca&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=WT%20Referral&utm_content=AnchorLink#trendovertime https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-D...
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  As bad as it is in the US, I can get seen the same day or next day. I had a thrombosed hemroid, I called and got an apointment the next day with a specialist. He confirmed my diagnosis and I got surgery to drain and remove it the following day. Only cost me less than 200 dollars after insurance. I had a bump on my testicle. I was concerned about cancer, so I see my regular doctor. $20 copay and he said it was just a blood something. I wanted to be sure, so he refered me and I got an ultrasound the same day at another facility. That only cost me a $100-something dollars after insurance. (It wasn't cancer.) Thrombosed hemroid where 95% of people treat it by soaking it in water daily? Probably low-priority, 58 days. Waiting 58 days for an ultrasound to see if you have cancer? Yeah, I'll keep the coverage/insurance that I have. I still understand the vast majority doesn't have it as good as I do and we still need to fix the system. I think we can bring people's standards up to what I experience, not down to what Canada experiences.

wtdata 7y ago

But we actually do as long is it's not a life treatning disease. As an example, I am now waiting 2 months to see my family doctor (I just need prescriptions for simple anti histamines, since it's cheaper that way), and 3 years to see a dermatologist for a routine check. On the other side, a member of my family unfortunately was diagnosed cancer about 3 weeks ago, and she had several medical appointments every week since then.