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Why can't we just write names as "Smith, John" when it's in the Asian order and "John Smith" or "John·Smith" if its in the Western order? It would remove all th
by knolax 7y ago
Why can't we just write names as "Smith, John" when it's in the Asian order and "John Smith" or "John·Smith" if its in the Western order? It would remove all the ambiguity using already existing conventions.
- azinman2 7y agoBecause the comma breaks English grammar when it’s in the middle of a sentence.
- knolax 7y agoThat's a good point. Perhaps we could use Smith`John since the grave character is rarely used.
- zapzupnz 7y agoInventing things like this is needless. We don't put commas or grave characters in Chinese and Korean names.
- bnjms 7y agoAnd it would never be used in Chinese or Korean writing. It would only ever be used for Latin alphabets when the order of names is reversed from the norm.
- zapzupnz 7y agoAgain, such things are not used in Chinese or Korean names — in the Latin alphabet. I was sure I didn't have to spell that out. No need to make an exception for Japanese, no need to start inventing needless uses for punctuation. The world is spinning just fine with names like Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-Un, free of superfluous characters marking their first and last names.
- knolax 7y agoI've seen tabloid rags refer to Kim Jong Un as [sic] "Mister Un" more times than I can count. I think it would be useful to be able to know the ordering of a name without having to look it up.
- zapzupnz 7y agoOr just not read tabloids which, despite being rags, should know better anyway. Actually, it's because a journalistic publication should know better that I'm inclined to call such an example wilful ignorance. People not knowing the Japanese name order, that's something that can be overcome with just the most minor amount of education. People who steadfastly get it wrong despite the standards of their profession, they don't count.
- knolax 7y ago>Or just not read tabloids You make a good point. If only the likes of The Guardian and Bloomberg didn't make it to the front page on HN regularly.
- zapzupnz 7y agoI guess there's just a dwindling number of reputable sources without paywalls. The proper papers whose articles can actually be shared and the rags such as you named are getting hard to distinguish.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bnjms 7y agoThat’s what I was thinking in response to your first idea. Every US keyboard has a grave character and it’s not used for anything. Maybe `Smith John is better since it works forwards too as John `Smith. Without stepping on punctuation. Either is preferable to SMITH John which is better than nothing. Either way let’s just agree to start using the ` from here out and the internet will catch on.
- firethief 7y agoThe same way it takes two sentences to mention Mr. Smith?
- falsedan 7y agoIt disregards the cultural history of names to suit what’s easiest for Western Europeans to understand.
- knolax 7y agoI really don't see how it "It disregards the cultural history of names". As far as I'm concerned the order of the names is just a minor grammatical difference.
- zapzupnz 7y agoOne person cannot speak for an entire gamut of people. There will be people for whom the way one says their name is not a simple matter of grammar but of identity, pride, family history, etc. The Japanese respect the rest of the world enough not to reverse our names — Brad Pitt doesn't become Pitt Brad — so there's no reason why we cannot accord the same back. There may also be great personal meaning or even simple wordplay in their name, said in a specific order, that is lost in translation. One (admittedly fatuous; ignore that I'm choosing a fictional character, it's merely for illustration) example is the main character from the manga The Disastrous Life of Saiki K — the name Saiki Kusuo contains a pun (the first three morae sound like 'psychic'), but this pun is lost whenever the name is written or said in Western order.
- jasonjei 7y agoChinese and Japanese, however, usually adopts the preference of locale name ordering. For example, Stephen Paul Jobs is rendered from Roman to Kana as スティーブン・ポール・“スティーブ”・ジョブズ Suteibun Pouru Jobuzu In Chinese as 史蒂夫·喬布斯 Shidifu Qiaobusi
- zapzupnz 7y agoBut still, as you notice, in the right order. Transliteration doesn't really come into it. Of course the Japanese would write スティーブ・ジョブス (but emphatically not ジョブス・スティーブ) rather than Steve Jobs, just the same way as we write Abe Shinzo rather than 安倍晋三.