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For me, as an ex-Australian who has lived in America and Europe, I don't trust either China or America with regards to their spying. Both countries have a long

For me, as an ex-Australian who has lived in America and Europe, I don't trust either China or America with regards to their spying. Both countries have a long line of human rights violations in their history, and neither has shown a particular improvement in the last few decades. The USA has committed untold strife in the world. It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators, it has declared war on innocent nations and racked up hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in its rush to war glory. It has spent more on war in the last decade than any other nation, by far, while its people suffer under one of the most tyrannical, terrible health systems the modern world has constructed. China has concentration camps. America has a thousand top-secret military prisons scattered around the globe. The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, and in light of the real evidence on the ground, a terribly ignorant point of view. I mean, we may be able to say, in all fairness, that there is a great chance that Huawei MAY spy for the Chinese government - but we can say for certainty that every single ISP in the USA HAS spied for the US Government, and we have no way to be sure it isn't still happening given the immense resources poured into making us look the other way as a civil society.

lustysocietyorg 7y ago
True. << The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, >> At least the modern China is not known for war crimes (with hundreds of thousands of dead people) and destruction of countries. Example of war crimes: Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE U.S. Has Spent Six Trillion Dollars on Wars That Killed Half a Million People Since 9/11, Report Says (2018-11-14). https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-half-million-1215588 https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-h... Quote: Overall, researchers estimated that "between 480,000 and 507,000 people have been killed in the United States’ post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." This toll "does not include the more than 500,000 deaths from the war in Syria, raging since 2011" when a West-backed rebel and jihadi uprising challenged the government, an ally of Russia and Iran. Example of cyber crime: How U.K. Spies Hacked a European Ally and Got Away With It (2018-02-17). https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigation-europe-hack/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigat... Quote 1: The Belgacom breach sparked outrage in Europe’s political institutions and made global headlines. But Belgium’s effort to identify the spies responsible and hold them accountable faced roadblocks at almost every turn. Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, refused to assist. Prosecutors overseeing the case feared triggering a major diplomatic dispute and were reluctant to pursue it aggressively. Meanwhile, British spies tried to destroy the evidence. Quote 2: “We wanted to show that as a small country, we would not be bullied,” said a source close to the investigation. “But we were fighting against two big cyberarmies from the U.K. and the U.S. We knew we could never win this.”
mantas 7y ago
There's a massive difference between foreign country spying on you and your own democratically elected government spying on you. Before you try to call US not democratic - don't. It is democratic. Especially when you compare to China. Of course, there's no perfect democracy and we can always work for more.
- Udik 7y ago
  Except that for anyone who's not American, the US is a foreign country.
  - mantas 7y ago
    And who is not in NATO or other closely allied countryu
    - fit2rule 7y ago
      On the list of countries that the US hasn't invaded yet, most of them are on NATO. So? NATO: over. War is over. If you want it.
- RobertoG 7y ago
  The grandparent don't say anywhere that the US is not democratic, it says that " It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators" that it's empirically truth. The idea that, in the international arena, and for not USA citizens, the USA is preferable to China is, at least, naive and, probably, dangerous. As a neither USA nor Chinese citizen, none of those two have my best interest at heart. Not even my own country have my best interest at heart frequently, but at least I have some "checks and balances" there.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    My checks and balances: a well-worn passport, pay the taxes and obey local laws, and do everything possible to attain a sail-boat existence, if if a land-lubber. And, eventually, get that sail boat. Borders are thin and invisible. Don't be stopped by them.

lustysocietyorg 7y ago

True. << The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, >> At least the modern China is not known for war crimes (with hundreds of thousands of dead people) and destruction of countries. Example of war crimes: Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE U.S. Has Spent Six Trillion Dollars on Wars That Killed Half a Million People Since 9/11, Report Says (2018-11-14). https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-half-million-1215588 https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-h... Quote: Overall, researchers estimated that "between 480,000 and 507,000 people have been killed in the United States’ post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." This toll "does not include the more than 500,000 deaths from the war in Syria, raging since 2011" when a West-backed rebel and jihadi uprising challenged the government, an ally of Russia and Iran. Example of cyber crime: How U.K. Spies Hacked a European Ally and Got Away With It (2018-02-17). https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigation-europe-hack/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigat... Quote 1: The Belgacom breach sparked outrage in Europe’s political institutions and made global headlines. But Belgium’s effort to identify the spies responsible and hold them accountable faced roadblocks at almost every turn. Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, refused to assist. Prosecutors overseeing the case feared triggering a major diplomatic dispute and were reluctant to pursue it aggressively. Meanwhile, British spies tried to destroy the evidence. Quote 2: “We wanted to show that as a small country, we would not be bullied,” said a source close to the investigation. “But we were fighting against two big cyberarmies from the U.K. and the U.S. We knew we could never win this.”

mantas 7y ago

There's a massive difference between foreign country spying on you and your own democratically elected government spying on you. Before you try to call US not democratic - don't. It is democratic. Especially when you compare to China. Of course, there's no perfect democracy and we can always work for more.

Udik 7y ago
Except that for anyone who's not American, the US is a foreign country.
- mantas 7y ago
  And who is not in NATO or other closely allied countryu
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    On the list of countries that the US hasn't invaded yet, most of them are on NATO. So? NATO: over. War is over. If you want it.
RobertoG 7y ago
The grandparent don't say anywhere that the US is not democratic, it says that " It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators" that it's empirically truth. The idea that, in the international arena, and for not USA citizens, the USA is preferable to China is, at least, naive and, probably, dangerous. As a neither USA nor Chinese citizen, none of those two have my best interest at heart. Not even my own country have my best interest at heart frequently, but at least I have some "checks and balances" there.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  My checks and balances: a well-worn passport, pay the taxes and obey local laws, and do everything possible to attain a sail-boat existence, if if a land-lubber. And, eventually, get that sail boat. Borders are thin and invisible. Don't be stopped by them.