7 ms·

One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we would kn

One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we would know. Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China. So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.

llamaz 7y ago
"there are checks and balances and freedoms" you are so full of child like innocence, I envy you
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  There is no need to be so condescending.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    That was the kindest way of saying it.
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  Come on, the fact the Trump wasn’t able to achieve much of what he wanted (and even start those initiatives properly) confirms that. A country with less powerful social institutes would be in a worse shape.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    So against a claim of child like innocence your response is to mention the Bogeyman?
- mantas 7y ago
  Yet US got significantly more checks and balances and freedoms than China.
  - lustysocietyorg 7y ago
    There are no good checks and balances in the USA. In the USA, evil is promoted openly and without shame. Proofs: https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/1033516711201386502 https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/1033516711201386502 https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1068900206136180736 https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1068900206136180736 Hillary & Bernie Blow Smoke Up McCain's A After Death (2018-08-27). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--joNde92k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--joNde92k Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE Assange Exposes Democrat Fascists, Torturers & Warmongers (2019-04-15). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWiPe--U3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWiPe--U3E Democrats Praise War Criminal Mattis (2019-01-19). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBo9X5MZqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBo9X5MZqs Mike Pompeo reveals true motto of CIA: 'We lied, we cheated, we stole' (2019-04-21), time 222. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnAR3yqfQ0&feature=youtu.be&t=222 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnAR3yqfQ0&feature=youtu.be...
okintheory 7y ago
This is not a hypothetical question at all. Denmark is certainly asking this question, with the understanding that currently the US can tap anything they want in our communications infrastructure, and buying 5G from Huawei would instead give that power to the Chinese. I think it is fortunate that Danish political consensus is converging toward avoiding Huawei infrastructure. American politicians might be as bad as Chinese leaders, but the former are sometimes held accountable, however meekly.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  What American company provides 5G carrier capabilities currently? I can’t think of any the only two that come in mind that aren’t Chinese are Alcatel-Nokia-Siemens-Lucent or w/e they are called now and Ericsson. For the most part the US can compromise networks without needing to control the companies that provide the equipment they’ll just compromise the operator and the supply chain.
  - diskiesk 7y ago
    The network core (back-end) of mobile network (including 5G) probably uses Cisco or Juniper switches, which are American companies. PS: I'm supporting blacklisting of Huawei equipment.
fit2rule 7y ago
For me, as an ex-Australian who has lived in America and Europe, I don't trust either China or America with regards to their spying. Both countries have a long line of human rights violations in their history, and neither has shown a particular improvement in the last few decades. The USA has committed untold strife in the world. It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators, it has declared war on innocent nations and racked up hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in its rush to war glory. It has spent more on war in the last decade than any other nation, by far, while its people suffer under one of the most tyrannical, terrible health systems the modern world has constructed. China has concentration camps. America has a thousand top-secret military prisons scattered around the globe. The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, and in light of the real evidence on the ground, a terribly ignorant point of view. I mean, we may be able to say, in all fairness, that there is a great chance that Huawei MAY spy for the Chinese government - but we can say for certainty that every single ISP in the USA HAS spied for the US Government, and we have no way to be sure it isn't still happening given the immense resources poured into making us look the other way as a civil society.
- lustysocietyorg 7y ago
  True. << The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, >> At least the modern China is not known for war crimes (with hundreds of thousands of dead people) and destruction of countries. Example of war crimes: Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE U.S. Has Spent Six Trillion Dollars on Wars That Killed Half a Million People Since 9/11, Report Says (2018-11-14). https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-half-million-1215588 https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-h... Quote: Overall, researchers estimated that "between 480,000 and 507,000 people have been killed in the United States’ post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." This toll "does not include the more than 500,000 deaths from the war in Syria, raging since 2011" when a West-backed rebel and jihadi uprising challenged the government, an ally of Russia and Iran. Example of cyber crime: How U.K. Spies Hacked a European Ally and Got Away With It (2018-02-17). https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigation-europe-hack/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigat... Quote 1: The Belgacom breach sparked outrage in Europe’s political institutions and made global headlines. But Belgium’s effort to identify the spies responsible and hold them accountable faced roadblocks at almost every turn. Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, refused to assist. Prosecutors overseeing the case feared triggering a major diplomatic dispute and were reluctant to pursue it aggressively. Meanwhile, British spies tried to destroy the evidence. Quote 2: “We wanted to show that as a small country, we would not be bullied,” said a source close to the investigation. “But we were fighting against two big cyberarmies from the U.K. and the U.S. We knew we could never win this.”
INTPenis 7y ago
>in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China. If the government really wants you they'll take you. And no amount of thoughts, prayers or picketing will free you. We've seen examples of that in our generation, the last 20 years only when we've had a massive information network available. Imagine all the nameless poor sods who have disappeared before the internet.
- deugtniet 7y ago
  I'm not naive about the limitations of the freedoms that are afforded to a citizen by the US government, or my government for that matter. We should have more freedoms and say into our government, and it should be more fair. But here's the main point: It's a hell of a lot better than in China. Freedom and checks and balances are always on a spectrum. You're arguing that because there are limitations to your freedom, you might as well be totally in chains.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    There are differences at lower levels, but not when it comes to you getting the attention of a state-level actor.
  - INTPenis 7y ago
    >It's a hell of a lot better than in China. How do you measure that? I mean what are you comparing? Media reporting? In my opinion you shouldn't even be able to trust internet media reporting on this matter. For example I think most of us saw the viral video a few weeks ago of a young chinese woman being taken from her apartment. She had left her cellphone recording while police detained her for no apparent reason. But if we take that as an example. What do we really know? All we really know is what is shown in that video. It's hard for the video to lie. Other than that we have no idea who released the video online or made sure it was spread onto western social media. Because as we do know, most of Asia are living in a bubble with their own social media and search engines. So with that in mind, an organisation could cherry pick information from such social media to spread on western media in order to manufacture consent. Imagine the roles reverse. A video of a young black male being detained for no reason, have dogs bite him, have officers beat him, released onto asian social media sites with no real context. I personally think it's much easier to assume that people are people in all parts of the world. Power corrupts in every country. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of religion, skin tone or cultural background. We're not that different.
hef19898 7y ago
Now Europe is being bitten by the fact that there are no major European companies left. Siemens network branch was bought by Nokia and then there's Ericsson. I'm just not sure why the EU is not making using domestic hardware a prerequisite. Would keep technological know how in the EU and reduce dependency. Not to speak about security.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  There are no US companies either afaik Qualcomm does not make carrier equipment they are happy making basebands and milking patents.
zaarn 7y ago
The checks and balances in the US of A only exist for Americans. They don't exist when you're not an American and exist even less if you're not even in America.
xbmcuser 7y ago
Yeah tell that to all the people that were interned without any legal recourse by American intelligence. As someone that is not from the USA or China I think we should worry more about USA than China as the records shows it is USA that has kidnapped people from their own countries or 3rd country rather than China.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  Or you know, we could worry about both the US and China? I come from a third-world country where my own government is looking to screw me over. There is some consolation in at least getting to choose who screws me over.
  - xbmcuser 7y ago
    Oh we should worry about both I was just comparing the 2. To me currently USA is more dangerous than China hypothetical future spying through Huawei.
saint_abroad 7y ago
> So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist. For example, though a PIA, GDPR makes mass-surveillance of EU citizens on the behalf of external entitites costly enough (4% of global revenue) for companies to challenge such requests.

llamaz 7y ago

"there are checks and balances and freedoms" you are so full of child like innocence, I envy you

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
There is no need to be so condescending.
- onlydeadheroes 7y ago
  That was the kindest way of saying it.
ymolodtsov 7y ago
Come on, the fact the Trump wasn’t able to achieve much of what he wanted (and even start those initiatives properly) confirms that. A country with less powerful social institutes would be in a worse shape.
- onlydeadheroes 7y ago
  So against a claim of child like innocence your response is to mention the Bogeyman?
mantas 7y ago
Yet US got significantly more checks and balances and freedoms than China.
- lustysocietyorg 7y ago
  There are no good checks and balances in the USA. In the USA, evil is promoted openly and without shame. Proofs: https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/1033516711201386502 https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/1033516711201386502 https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1068900206136180736 https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1068900206136180736 Hillary & Bernie Blow Smoke Up McCain's A After Death (2018-08-27). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--joNde92k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--joNde92k Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE Assange Exposes Democrat Fascists, Torturers & Warmongers (2019-04-15). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWiPe--U3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWiPe--U3E Democrats Praise War Criminal Mattis (2019-01-19). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBo9X5MZqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBo9X5MZqs Mike Pompeo reveals true motto of CIA: 'We lied, we cheated, we stole' (2019-04-21), time 222. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnAR3yqfQ0&feature=youtu.be&t=222 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnAR3yqfQ0&feature=youtu.be...

okintheory 7y ago

This is not a hypothetical question at all. Denmark is certainly asking this question, with the understanding that currently the US can tap anything they want in our communications infrastructure, and buying 5G from Huawei would instead give that power to the Chinese. I think it is fortunate that Danish political consensus is converging toward avoiding Huawei infrastructure. American politicians might be as bad as Chinese leaders, but the former are sometimes held accountable, however meekly.

dogma1138 7y ago
What American company provides 5G carrier capabilities currently? I can’t think of any the only two that come in mind that aren’t Chinese are Alcatel-Nokia-Siemens-Lucent or w/e they are called now and Ericsson. For the most part the US can compromise networks without needing to control the companies that provide the equipment they’ll just compromise the operator and the supply chain.
- diskiesk 7y ago
  The network core (back-end) of mobile network (including 5G) probably uses Cisco or Juniper switches, which are American companies. PS: I'm supporting blacklisting of Huawei equipment.

fit2rule 7y ago

For me, as an ex-Australian who has lived in America and Europe, I don't trust either China or America with regards to their spying. Both countries have a long line of human rights violations in their history, and neither has shown a particular improvement in the last few decades. The USA has committed untold strife in the world. It has toppled democratically elected governments and installed dictators, it has declared war on innocent nations and racked up hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in its rush to war glory. It has spent more on war in the last decade than any other nation, by far, while its people suffer under one of the most tyrannical, terrible health systems the modern world has constructed. China has concentration camps. America has a thousand top-secret military prisons scattered around the globe. The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, and in light of the real evidence on the ground, a terribly ignorant point of view. I mean, we may be able to say, in all fairness, that there is a great chance that Huawei MAY spy for the Chinese government - but we can say for certainty that every single ISP in the USA HAS spied for the US Government, and we have no way to be sure it isn't still happening given the immense resources poured into making us look the other way as a civil society.

lustysocietyorg 7y ago
True. << The idea that one can be trusted over the other is utterly naive, >> At least the modern China is not known for war crimes (with hundreds of thousands of dead people) and destruction of countries. Example of war crimes: Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom (2012-05-02). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE U.S. Has Spent Six Trillion Dollars on Wars That Killed Half a Million People Since 9/11, Report Says (2018-11-14). https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-half-million-1215588 https://www.newsweek.com/us-spent-six-trillion-wars-killed-h... Quote: Overall, researchers estimated that "between 480,000 and 507,000 people have been killed in the United States’ post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." This toll "does not include the more than 500,000 deaths from the war in Syria, raging since 2011" when a West-backed rebel and jihadi uprising challenged the government, an ally of Russia and Iran. Example of cyber crime: How U.K. Spies Hacked a European Ally and Got Away With It (2018-02-17). https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigation-europe-hack/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/gchq-belgacom-investigat... Quote 1: The Belgacom breach sparked outrage in Europe’s political institutions and made global headlines. But Belgium’s effort to identify the spies responsible and hold them accountable faced roadblocks at almost every turn. Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, refused to assist. Prosecutors overseeing the case feared triggering a major diplomatic dispute and were reluctant to pursue it aggressively. Meanwhile, British spies tried to destroy the evidence. Quote 2: “We wanted to show that as a small country, we would not be bullied,” said a source close to the investigation. “But we were fighting against two big cyberarmies from the U.K. and the U.S. We knew we could never win this.”

INTPenis 7y ago

>in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China. If the government really wants you they'll take you. And no amount of thoughts, prayers or picketing will free you. We've seen examples of that in our generation, the last 20 years only when we've had a massive information network available. Imagine all the nameless poor sods who have disappeared before the internet.

deugtniet 7y ago
I'm not naive about the limitations of the freedoms that are afforded to a citizen by the US government, or my government for that matter. We should have more freedoms and say into our government, and it should be more fair. But here's the main point: It's a hell of a lot better than in China. Freedom and checks and balances are always on a spectrum. You're arguing that because there are limitations to your freedom, you might as well be totally in chains.
- onlydeadheroes 7y ago
  There are differences at lower levels, but not when it comes to you getting the attention of a state-level actor.
- INTPenis 7y ago
  >It's a hell of a lot better than in China. How do you measure that? I mean what are you comparing? Media reporting? In my opinion you shouldn't even be able to trust internet media reporting on this matter. For example I think most of us saw the viral video a few weeks ago of a young chinese woman being taken from her apartment. She had left her cellphone recording while police detained her for no apparent reason. But if we take that as an example. What do we really know? All we really know is what is shown in that video. It's hard for the video to lie. Other than that we have no idea who released the video online or made sure it was spread onto western social media. Because as we do know, most of Asia are living in a bubble with their own social media and search engines. So with that in mind, an organisation could cherry pick information from such social media to spread on western media in order to manufacture consent. Imagine the roles reverse. A video of a young black male being detained for no reason, have dogs bite him, have officers beat him, released onto asian social media sites with no real context. I personally think it's much easier to assume that people are people in all parts of the world. Power corrupts in every country. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of religion, skin tone or cultural background. We're not that different.

hef19898 7y ago

Now Europe is being bitten by the fact that there are no major European companies left. Siemens network branch was bought by Nokia and then there's Ericsson. I'm just not sure why the EU is not making using domestic hardware a prerequisite. Would keep technological know how in the EU and reduce dependency. Not to speak about security.

dogma1138 7y ago
There are no US companies either afaik Qualcomm does not make carrier equipment they are happy making basebands and milking patents.

zaarn 7y ago

The checks and balances in the US of A only exist for Americans. They don't exist when you're not an American and exist even less if you're not even in America.

xbmcuser 7y ago

Yeah tell that to all the people that were interned without any legal recourse by American intelligence. As someone that is not from the USA or China I think we should worry more about USA than China as the records shows it is USA that has kidnapped people from their own countries or 3rd country rather than China.

throwaway8879 7y ago
Or you know, we could worry about both the US and China? I come from a third-world country where my own government is looking to screw me over. There is some consolation in at least getting to choose who screws me over.
- xbmcuser 7y ago
  Oh we should worry about both I was just comparing the 2. To me currently USA is more dangerous than China hypothetical future spying through Huawei.

saint_abroad 7y ago

> So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist. For example, though a PIA, GDPR makes mass-surveillance of EU citizens on the behalf of external entitites costly enough (4% of global revenue) for companies to challenge such requests.