6 ms·

Paranoia will destroy us: Why Huawei and other Chinese tech is not spying

53 points by edwinjm 7y ago

MordodeMaru 7y ago
This is a superb summary and a great call to action to get together and examine in depth the out of band data leaks and data management.
rbrtdrmpc- 7y ago
Huawei was under the radar of national security agencies (look at the S, not just the US) for years
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
howiroll 7y ago
Huawei needs to go. It’s a communist dictatorship state controlled company.
RobertRoberts 7y ago
I view this kind of caution against foreign powers (corporations are not separate from their governments in time of war) in the same way that the 2nd amendment protects us against tyranny. And seatbelts from flying through wind shields. You don't need it until you need it, and if you don't have it, it's too late. National infrastructure that needs to work in a time of war must be nationally controlled by all nations. "Spying" is a straw man argument, it's not about spying.
- karmakaze 7y ago
  Innthe age of information spying is the war.
  - cm2187 7y ago
    Spying and computer attacks. All out wars between modern developed countries is badically impossible given our power of destruction.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    That seems like saying "scouting is the war" from 1000 years ago. Perhaps the preparations for war though, and effective strategies during war? When war starts up, nations don't have time/resources to update their networks/infrastructure.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  I think the UK appears to have taken the pragmatic descision since Thatcher, that in anything serious these days it is either overrun or obliterated, so might as well buy the cheap stuff from our strategic rivals that will break down in an apocalypse and we can make some quick cash in the mean time selling off all the national technical base. edit - Has been going on since long before Thatcher, to be fair. There's an old documentary about this subject by Spike Milligan, called 'The Bed Sitting Room' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U
  - ptah 7y ago
    yip, thatcher set in motion a process that has resulted in there being no uk companies with the expertise t o build a nuclear power station. the uk has to rely on french and chinese state owned companies for that
  - alimw 7y ago
    Not sure what sense to make of this: that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or obliterated (would be either overrun or obliterated?) I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-a-half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      >that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or obliterated (would be either overrun or obliterated?) yes >I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-a-half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...) Prophetic satire then. Watch it anyway, you owe it to Spike Milligan.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
walrus01 7y ago
It's fairly well known in the telecom and internet infrastructure field that Huawei stole Nortel's entire DWDM and optical transport product line and duplicated it. The ex Nortel HQ office building in the Ottawa area was found to be riddled with high tech bugs.
deugtniet 7y ago
One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we would know. Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China. So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.
- llamaz 7y ago
  "there are checks and balances and freedoms" you are so full of child like innocence, I envy you
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    There is no need to be so condescending.
    - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
      That was the kindest way of saying it.
  - ymolodtsov 7y ago
    Come on, the fact the Trump wasn’t able to achieve much of what he wanted (and even start those initiatives properly) confirms that. A country with less powerful social institutes would be in a worse shape.
    - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
      So against a claim of child like innocence your response is to mention the Bogeyman?
  - mantas 7y ago
    Yet US got significantly more checks and balances and freedoms than China.
RobertoG 7y ago
It surprise me that people take those allegations seriously. I mean, some spying is to be expected but not to justify the banning of all the company. I thought it was obvious that this have nothing to do with spying. Some elements in the USA government and legislative have decided that China could be a threat to American only superpower status. By the way, what happened with the Bloomberg allegations? (1) (1) - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  I’m not sure how 5G infrastructure or smartphones threaten the status of a superpower in any sense. Also, at this point Bloomberg is already an outlet that can’t be trusted as they haven’t provided any follow-up to the Super Micro story.
  - Yetanfou 7y ago
    Smartphones are universal data collection devices, each of which is capable of gathering audio-, video-, RF-, location-, motion- and activity-based intelligence. Some add various other capabilities like air pressure, temperature and humidity to the list. Controlling this massive data source is massively valuable. Since each device contains a fairly powerful radio transmitter they can also be used as jammers by those who control the (closed, proprietary) RF firmware. All these devices are battery-powered so they can not just be disabled by pulling the plug (or the battery in 'modern' devices). 5G infrastructure adds another layer to the intelligence gathering infrastructure as well as an even more powerful jamming capability. Cell towers are equipped with battery backup as well so they can not easily be disabled by cutting the power to the tower. Any party in control of these assets has strategic and tactical advantages over their adversary: strategic in that this allows for intelligence gathering, tactical in that this allows for precise targeting, jamming, denial of service, control of connected infrastructure for whatever purpose and more [1]. [1] Controlling mobile infrastructure over a wide area adds the prospect of using it to defy 'stealth' (low radar cross-section) by capturing off-axis reflections, etc.
z3t4 7y ago
I hope Huawei make a fully open source and hack-able mobile phone. I think that would sell like crazy on the western market where everyone hates Google, and ride the news wave and turn it around into their favor.
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  People don’t hate Google as much as you want to believe, people love Google Search/Maps/Gmail and everyone who wanted “a fully open source phone” could install MicroG for a long time already.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    Google is very different in the age of "gmail ain't done 'til firefox won't run"...
- dogma1138 7y ago
  You won’t get an open source baseband ever trough certification.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    Does that matter for Huawei?
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      Since importing and even using those devices in the US, Europe and every other developed nation is a crime then yes it would.
coconut_crab 7y ago
Maybe not yet, but it surely gives them the capability to spy later on. My country, Vietnam, also banned Huawei equipment[1], and I don't believe it's pure paranoia. China has been taking every chances to spy on us, from illegally buy houses near Da Nang airport[2] (nearest airbase to Paracels) to 'tourists' walking near the Ministry of Defence to Advanced Persistent Threat targeting petroleum or maritime corporation (forgot the link right now). We just don't trust China, and there're numerous reasons for that. This may sound racist but the stereotype of Chinese in Vietnam is extremely cunning, for better or worse, they will do everything to get to their goals as long as they don't get found out. China has 5000 years of history, they always play the long game. Some quotations from "The Art of War" 2500 years ago: "Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business" " The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service. " [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-huawei-an-inch/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-hu... [2] https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-more-land-illegally-bought-by-chinese https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-more-l...
- mnky9800n 7y ago
  What do you think America is doing?
  - coconut_crab 7y ago
    America? I think Trump is a fool but some of his measures make sense. Regarding China, I feel that America misunderstood that China will play by the international rule (setup by western countries). No, they have their own rule and whatever 'International law' out there are written by upsurping countries and meaningless to them.
- dna_polymerase 7y ago
  The alternative is relying on US tech. While I get the point that Huawei could be spying on us later on, the US is the one nation we know is spying on us. All tech we use these days can be used for spying. The whole Huawei craze is just the U.S. realizing that they are no longer the only power to fear.
crystaln 7y ago
This is either incredibly naive or a successful plant by Chinese intelligence. Chinese telecommunications and internet companies are effectively branches of the Chinese government, in that they are required to comply with basically any demands placed upon them by the Chinese military or government. Next you'll try to tell me China didn't infiltrate Tom-Skype.
diminish 7y ago
Huawei won't be spying but will also limit US spying. so it is a no go. Currently there are 5 coountries USA, Russia, Israel and China playing the digital intelligence game with enough talent and companies. On your mobile phone only those countries have a window for spying.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  I don't think Russia is capable of spying on mobile phones. And have doubts about Israel too. How would they even get there?
  - diminish 7y ago
    Endless apps and vulnerabilities.
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      But then you have to install a Russian app. And WebView component is autoupdated in recent Androids.
diminish 7y ago
Huawei passed Apple in 2018 and Q12019. It threatens Samsung to become Number 1 soon. Oppo, Xiaomi and other Chinese smartphone manufacturers are also rising. Old Nokia, HTC, Erickson, Sony, ( US allies like Europe, Taiwan, Japan ) are losing . Only South Korea held on but is the next one to get pushed into insignificance. Trump uses non free market tools to stop this growth. https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-smartphone-market-share-reaches-highest-ever-level-q1-2019/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-smartpho...
chvid 7y ago
First of all: This is not about "banning" Huawei in USA. Huawei is not in the US. It is about preventing the rest of the world in using Huawei. The Trump administration has spent the last year or so trying to convince allies not to use Huawei and apparently has failed to do so. So now it does this. Trump seems to think he can win an election on China; this may be the case. However doing so will probably hurt the longterm interest of the US. Forcing millions of European Huawei users away from Google services is neither in the business interest of Google nor does it benefit the intelligence gathering capabilities of the US.
- elp 7y ago
  I don't think the President realizes just how much this will harm the USA in the long run. He is basically telling the rest of the world to think long and hard before using any American tech in their products. Also his allies are increasingly less and less inclined to listen to him. The French have openly said they will continue to use Huawei. The Brits are going to use them anyway, the just didn't want the USA to know. Edit: sorry. toned down the language.
moltar 7y ago
Just a reminder that Nortel, an ex-Canadian giant was “spied to death” by Huawei back in early 2000s. The stolen tech is the foundation of Huawei.
aaomidi 7y ago
I know people who work for Huawei in Iran. They are spying.
colinb 7y ago
I know with some certainty that US based companies provide source for communications software to US three letter agencies. I think it's strange to expect that a Chinese company would refuse to render the same services to analogous agencies in China. Whether US companies would willingly insert changes at the behest of those agencies I do not know.

53 points by edwinjm 7y ago

This is a superb summary and a great call to action to get together and examine in depth the out of band data leaks and data management.

rbrtdrmpc- 7y ago

Huawei was under the radar of national security agencies (look at the S, not just the US) for years

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

howiroll 7y ago

Huawei needs to go. It’s a communist dictatorship state controlled company.

RobertRoberts 7y ago

I view this kind of caution against foreign powers (corporations are not separate from their governments in time of war) in the same way that the 2nd amendment protects us against tyranny. And seatbelts from flying through wind shields. You don't need it until you need it, and if you don't have it, it's too late. National infrastructure that needs to work in a time of war must be nationally controlled by all nations. "Spying" is a straw man argument, it's not about spying.

karmakaze 7y ago
Innthe age of information spying is the war.
- cm2187 7y ago
  Spying and computer attacks. All out wars between modern developed countries is badically impossible given our power of destruction.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  That seems like saying "scouting is the war" from 1000 years ago. Perhaps the preparations for war though, and effective strategies during war? When war starts up, nations don't have time/resources to update their networks/infrastructure.
inflatableDodo 7y ago
I think the UK appears to have taken the pragmatic descision since Thatcher, that in anything serious these days it is either overrun or obliterated, so might as well buy the cheap stuff from our strategic rivals that will break down in an apocalypse and we can make some quick cash in the mean time selling off all the national technical base. edit - Has been going on since long before Thatcher, to be fair. There's an old documentary about this subject by Spike Milligan, called 'The Bed Sitting Room' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0w8tU0j1U
- ptah 7y ago
  yip, thatcher set in motion a process that has resulted in there being no uk companies with the expertise t o build a nuclear power station. the uk has to rely on french and chinese state owned companies for that
- alimw 7y ago
  Not sure what sense to make of this: that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or obliterated (would be either overrun or obliterated?) I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-a-half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    >that in anything serious these days (World War III?) it is either overrun or obliterated (would be either overrun or obliterated?) yes >I tried clicking on your link to help me understand but it's to an hour-and-a-half long film (and not, I think, a documentary...) Prophetic satire then. Watch it anyway, you owe it to Spike Milligan.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

walrus01 7y ago

It's fairly well known in the telecom and internet infrastructure field that Huawei stole Nortel's entire DWDM and optical transport product line and duplicated it. The ex Nortel HQ office building in the Ottawa area was found to be riddled with high tech bugs.

deugtniet 7y ago

One point that I'm missing, is that the government of China can legally force any of their companies to start spying. And there would be no way that we would know. Then often the argument becomes: But the US are already spying on us, so it's not too bad. Which is fair, but in the US, there are checks and balances and freedoms so that somebody has recourse. All these things are absent in China. So the question is one of trust. Who do you trust more when they are spying on you: The US or China? For me as a European, this is definitely the former.

llamaz 7y ago
"there are checks and balances and freedoms" you are so full of child like innocence, I envy you
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  There is no need to be so condescending.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    That was the kindest way of saying it.
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  Come on, the fact the Trump wasn’t able to achieve much of what he wanted (and even start those initiatives properly) confirms that. A country with less powerful social institutes would be in a worse shape.
  - onlydeadheroes 7y ago
    So against a claim of child like innocence your response is to mention the Bogeyman?
- mantas 7y ago
  Yet US got significantly more checks and balances and freedoms than China.

RobertoG 7y ago

It surprise me that people take those allegations seriously. I mean, some spying is to be expected but not to justify the banning of all the company. I thought it was obvious that this have nothing to do with spying. Some elements in the USA government and legislative have decided that China could be a threat to American only superpower status. By the way, what happened with the Bloomberg allegations? (1) (1) - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...

ymolodtsov 7y ago
I’m not sure how 5G infrastructure or smartphones threaten the status of a superpower in any sense. Also, at this point Bloomberg is already an outlet that can’t be trusted as they haven’t provided any follow-up to the Super Micro story.
- Yetanfou 7y ago
  Smartphones are universal data collection devices, each of which is capable of gathering audio-, video-, RF-, location-, motion- and activity-based intelligence. Some add various other capabilities like air pressure, temperature and humidity to the list. Controlling this massive data source is massively valuable. Since each device contains a fairly powerful radio transmitter they can also be used as jammers by those who control the (closed, proprietary) RF firmware. All these devices are battery-powered so they can not just be disabled by pulling the plug (or the battery in 'modern' devices). 5G infrastructure adds another layer to the intelligence gathering infrastructure as well as an even more powerful jamming capability. Cell towers are equipped with battery backup as well so they can not easily be disabled by cutting the power to the tower. Any party in control of these assets has strategic and tactical advantages over their adversary: strategic in that this allows for intelligence gathering, tactical in that this allows for precise targeting, jamming, denial of service, control of connected infrastructure for whatever purpose and more [1]. [1] Controlling mobile infrastructure over a wide area adds the prospect of using it to defy 'stealth' (low radar cross-section) by capturing off-axis reflections, etc.

z3t4 7y ago

I hope Huawei make a fully open source and hack-able mobile phone. I think that would sell like crazy on the western market where everyone hates Google, and ride the news wave and turn it around into their favor.

ymolodtsov 7y ago
People don’t hate Google as much as you want to believe, people love Google Search/Maps/Gmail and everyone who wanted “a fully open source phone” could install MicroG for a long time already.
- onlydeadheroes 7y ago
  Google is very different in the age of "gmail ain't done 'til firefox won't run"...
dogma1138 7y ago
You won’t get an open source baseband ever trough certification.
- onlydeadheroes 7y ago
  Does that matter for Huawei?
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    Since importing and even using those devices in the US, Europe and every other developed nation is a crime then yes it would.

coconut_crab 7y ago

Maybe not yet, but it surely gives them the capability to spy later on. My country, Vietnam, also banned Huawei equipment[1], and I don't believe it's pure paranoia. China has been taking every chances to spy on us, from illegally buy houses near Da Nang airport[2] (nearest airbase to Paracels) to 'tourists' walking near the Ministry of Defence to Advanced Persistent Threat targeting petroleum or maritime corporation (forgot the link right now). We just don't trust China, and there're numerous reasons for that. This may sound racist but the stereotype of Chinese in Vietnam is extremely cunning, for better or worse, they will do everything to get to their goals as long as they don't get found out. China has 5000 years of history, they always play the long game. Some quotations from "The Art of War" 2500 years ago: "Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business" " The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service. " [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-huawei-an-inch/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/09/vietnam-doesnt-trust-hu... [2] https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-more-land-illegally-bought-by-chinese https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/32340/da-nang-suspects-more-l...

mnky9800n 7y ago
What do you think America is doing?
- coconut_crab 7y ago
  America? I think Trump is a fool but some of his measures make sense. Regarding China, I feel that America misunderstood that China will play by the international rule (setup by western countries). No, they have their own rule and whatever 'International law' out there are written by upsurping countries and meaningless to them.
dna_polymerase 7y ago
The alternative is relying on US tech. While I get the point that Huawei could be spying on us later on, the US is the one nation we know is spying on us. All tech we use these days can be used for spying. The whole Huawei craze is just the U.S. realizing that they are no longer the only power to fear.

crystaln 7y ago

This is either incredibly naive or a successful plant by Chinese intelligence. Chinese telecommunications and internet companies are effectively branches of the Chinese government, in that they are required to comply with basically any demands placed upon them by the Chinese military or government. Next you'll try to tell me China didn't infiltrate Tom-Skype.

diminish 7y ago

Huawei won't be spying but will also limit US spying. so it is a no go. Currently there are 5 coountries USA, Russia, Israel and China playing the digital intelligence game with enough talent and companies. On your mobile phone only those countries have a window for spying.

lostmsu 7y ago
I don't think Russia is capable of spying on mobile phones. And have doubts about Israel too. How would they even get there?
- diminish 7y ago
  Endless apps and vulnerabilities.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    But then you have to install a Russian app. And WebView component is autoupdated in recent Androids.

diminish 7y ago

Huawei passed Apple in 2018 and Q12019. It threatens Samsung to become Number 1 soon. Oppo, Xiaomi and other Chinese smartphone manufacturers are also rising. Old Nokia, HTC, Erickson, Sony, ( US allies like Europe, Taiwan, Japan ) are losing . Only South Korea held on but is the next one to get pushed into insignificance. Trump uses non free market tools to stop this growth. https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-smartphone-market-share-reaches-highest-ever-level-q1-2019/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/huaweis-global-smartpho...

chvid 7y ago

First of all: This is not about "banning" Huawei in USA. Huawei is not in the US. It is about preventing the rest of the world in using Huawei. The Trump administration has spent the last year or so trying to convince allies not to use Huawei and apparently has failed to do so. So now it does this. Trump seems to think he can win an election on China; this may be the case. However doing so will probably hurt the longterm interest of the US. Forcing millions of European Huawei users away from Google services is neither in the business interest of Google nor does it benefit the intelligence gathering capabilities of the US.

elp 7y ago
I don't think the President realizes just how much this will harm the USA in the long run. He is basically telling the rest of the world to think long and hard before using any American tech in their products. Also his allies are increasingly less and less inclined to listen to him. The French have openly said they will continue to use Huawei. The Brits are going to use them anyway, the just didn't want the USA to know. Edit: sorry. toned down the language.

moltar 7y ago

Just a reminder that Nortel, an ex-Canadian giant was “spied to death” by Huawei back in early 2000s. The stolen tech is the foundation of Huawei.

aaomidi 7y ago

I know people who work for Huawei in Iran. They are spying.

colinb 7y ago

I know with some certainty that US based companies provide source for communications software to US three letter agencies. I think it's strange to expect that a Chinese company would refuse to render the same services to analogous agencies in China. Whether US companies would willingly insert changes at the behest of those agencies I do not know.