5 ms·

> References QT as a solution > Calls web devs cheaper to hire, a gatekeeping tactic that shows up in every discussion like this (market salaries actually indic

> References QT as a solution > Calls web devs cheaper to hire, a gatekeeping tactic that shows up in every discussion like this (market salaries actually indicate the opposite is true here...) > "whiny kids" Yup, this seems par for the course. Desktop UI has to be willing to compete on Electron's merits, that's the game now. It will die otherwise.

coldtea 7y ago
>Desktop UI has to be willing to compete on Electron's merits That's a pretty low bar. None amazing desktop UI I've seen has been non-native.
- Klonoar 7y ago
  Then you're using a select few apps that fit your use-case. The merits of Electron are explained, at length, elsewhere, and the market has spoken multiple times as to why people pick it over alternative environments. Microsoft outright courts the HTML/CSS/JS crowd because they know it matters, and that's where the developers are. Google does the same, FB has been pushing the model for native apps in more ways than you can count for years now. It's not going away, and it's eating every Desktop GUI framework's lunch. A GUI framework (like AppKit) cannot stand against something like that without Apple actually investing in it. AppKit (or whatever they use, ala Marzipan) needs to strive to be as easy and straightforward to use as the web, or it won't matter. Comparatively few people actually care about writing a GUI and just want it to work, the interesting things are elsewhere... so you need to offer something that "just works" and is easy to debug. (Qt is not this) Also, "Native" is a horrendously overloaded term in these discussions. When saying it in the context of Qt, for instance, it's incorrect - Qt draws custom controls on the different platforms. A good example that I hit daily is Dolphin, it simply doesn't look correct on Mac even with the Qt switch. It feels like a Windows program shoved into a foreign OS, much like GTK does on Windows.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Then you're using a select few apps that fit your use-case. Please enlighten me of the apps I miss. >It's not going away, and it's eating every Desktop GUI framework's lunch. Not for any app that matters. Form-based apps and glorified chat apps like Slack and FB, perhaps...
    - arvinsim 7y ago
      > glorified chat apps like Slack Sure, let's just call the app that many many tech teams use as an app that doesn't matter. It's not perfect. But it's certainly not insignificant.
      - zapzupnz 7y ago
        It's also not a poster boy for a good app, Electron or not. It looks uglier than plenty of native chat apps and still manages to take up an amazing amount of RAM doing absolutely nothing.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        If you mean Slack, they have announced at Google IO that they will migrate to a PWA. Check the PWA and what is coming to the Web talks. One reason less to bother with Electron.
        ilikehurdles 7y ago
        So they're moving from one chromium-wrapped desktop web app to another (or, really, they're changing the backing library/framework). Do desktop PWAs have access to native APIs as a native app would? That's a draw of Electron but not sure why anyone would want it in an application like Slack that works just fine in a browser tab.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        I only have one copy of Chrome on my computer. Yes, PWAs have different levels of access to host APIs.
    - 7y ago
  - Crinus 7y ago
    > the market has spoken multiple times Every time i hear "the market" speak is to complain about Electron's resource use. Most of the time though "the market" has no idea why their computers become slow and they blame the computer itself. The choice for Electron isn't done by "the market", it is done by the developers.
    - dillonmckay 7y ago
      Who pays the developers?
      - coldtea 7y ago
        Scumbags peddling BS social apps we don't need.
    - Klonoar 7y ago
      Developers are the market in that talking point, not the end users. If you have a choice between your standard desktop GUI toolkits (AppKit, WPF, Qt, etc) and the web toolkit, your prospective user market _of these toolkits_ are developers. Developers overwhelmingly choose the latter. Thus, the market has spoken on the matter. If you (or anyone) want it to be reversed, then you need to complain at the desktop GUI toolkit makers enough that they invest time, resources, and so on to make them as approachable and "just works" to compete with the web. The web platform won, insofar as desired common rendering APIs go, and that's the game now. That we're even still debating this in 2019 is ridiculous.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        What market? The one of developers that want to get payed, but refuse to pay for their tools?
tomc1985 7y ago
Dismissing others' thoughts is a gatekeeping tactic, too...

coldtea 7y ago

>Desktop UI has to be willing to compete on Electron's merits That's a pretty low bar. None amazing desktop UI I've seen has been non-native.

Klonoar 7y ago
Then you're using a select few apps that fit your use-case. The merits of Electron are explained, at length, elsewhere, and the market has spoken multiple times as to why people pick it over alternative environments. Microsoft outright courts the HTML/CSS/JS crowd because they know it matters, and that's where the developers are. Google does the same, FB has been pushing the model for native apps in more ways than you can count for years now. It's not going away, and it's eating every Desktop GUI framework's lunch. A GUI framework (like AppKit) cannot stand against something like that without Apple actually investing in it. AppKit (or whatever they use, ala Marzipan) needs to strive to be as easy and straightforward to use as the web, or it won't matter. Comparatively few people actually care about writing a GUI and just want it to work, the interesting things are elsewhere... so you need to offer something that "just works" and is easy to debug. (Qt is not this) Also, "Native" is a horrendously overloaded term in these discussions. When saying it in the context of Qt, for instance, it's incorrect - Qt draws custom controls on the different platforms. A good example that I hit daily is Dolphin, it simply doesn't look correct on Mac even with the Qt switch. It feels like a Windows program shoved into a foreign OS, much like GTK does on Windows.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Then you're using a select few apps that fit your use-case. Please enlighten me of the apps I miss. >It's not going away, and it's eating every Desktop GUI framework's lunch. Not for any app that matters. Form-based apps and glorified chat apps like Slack and FB, perhaps...
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    > glorified chat apps like Slack Sure, let's just call the app that many many tech teams use as an app that doesn't matter. It's not perfect. But it's certainly not insignificant.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      It's also not a poster boy for a good app, Electron or not. It looks uglier than plenty of native chat apps and still manages to take up an amazing amount of RAM doing absolutely nothing.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      If you mean Slack, they have announced at Google IO that they will migrate to a PWA. Check the PWA and what is coming to the Web talks. One reason less to bother with Electron.
      - ilikehurdles 7y ago
        So they're moving from one chromium-wrapped desktop web app to another (or, really, they're changing the backing library/framework). Do desktop PWAs have access to native APIs as a native app would? That's a draw of Electron but not sure why anyone would want it in an application like Slack that works just fine in a browser tab.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        I only have one copy of Chrome on my computer. Yes, PWAs have different levels of access to host APIs.
  - 7y ago
- Crinus 7y ago
  > the market has spoken multiple times Every time i hear "the market" speak is to complain about Electron's resource use. Most of the time though "the market" has no idea why their computers become slow and they blame the computer itself. The choice for Electron isn't done by "the market", it is done by the developers.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    Who pays the developers?
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Scumbags peddling BS social apps we don't need.
  - Klonoar 7y ago
    Developers are the market in that talking point, not the end users. If you have a choice between your standard desktop GUI toolkits (AppKit, WPF, Qt, etc) and the web toolkit, your prospective user market _of these toolkits_ are developers. Developers overwhelmingly choose the latter. Thus, the market has spoken on the matter. If you (or anyone) want it to be reversed, then you need to complain at the desktop GUI toolkit makers enough that they invest time, resources, and so on to make them as approachable and "just works" to compete with the web. The web platform won, insofar as desired common rendering APIs go, and that's the game now. That we're even still debating this in 2019 is ridiculous.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      What market? The one of developers that want to get payed, but refuse to pay for their tools?

tomc1985 7y ago

Dismissing others' thoughts is a gatekeeping tactic, too...