6 ms·

I am also a millennial. The work ethic problem seems to actually exist (from my limited but numerous experiences, including my own), however I am convinced tha

I am also a millennial. The work ethic problem seems to actually exist (from my limited but numerous experiences, including my own), however I am convinced that it is due to learned helplessness. Just imagine hearing your entire life that the world is just about to end any minute now, the icebergs are melting, everything is polluted, everything is so very bad, financial depression, no jobs for you, etc etc. Seems like these generations are under massive assault of negative information every second of their lives. Is it any surprise suicide deaths are a leading cause of death for younger adults? Sort of difficult to have good work ethic with chronic depression.

bazooka_penguin 7y ago
Having seen boomers at work I think millennials are about par for the course. People in general are lazy and indolent, but I would say the latter is more true of old people who are set in their ways.
caconym_ 7y ago
The phrase "work ethic" pisses me off because it codes this idea that I should be a hard worker, which of course (because we live in the world we live in) refers to me busting my ass for somebody else's benefit. Anyone who wants to criticize my work ethic can go and fuck themselves. I work incredibly hard, but at my job^[1] I do as little work as I can get away with (while retaining the standing I need to be comfortable) because they pay me as little as they can get away with. I don't see the problem. ^[1] Coveted tech job. It is a "great job" and in practical terms I feel lucky to have it. None of that changes the calculus of the business relationship that is employment.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  > I work incredibly hard, but at my job^[1] I do as little work as I can get away with (while retaining the standing I need to be comfortable) because they pay me as little as they can get away with. I don't see the problem. A lot of people will see that as laziness, but businesses do that kind of cost-benefit adjustment all the time. If a business keeps paying a person who is working less, that's on them, not the employee.
- djakjxnanjak 7y ago
  I think a more reasonable attitude is that it’s usually possible to improve your material wealth with effort, and people can decide to make the trade-off if they think it’s worth it. This is not a value judgement.
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    > This is not a value judgement. Where "this" is the term "work ethic"? For you, maybe not, but for others it is certainly used to articulate a value judgment, hence my dislike of the term. I don't think it's precise or accurate enough to avoid being used in this negatively loaded way. I agree that "it’s usually possible to improve your material wealth with effort, and people can decide to make the trade-off if they think it’s worth it." That is exactly the sort of trade-off I claim to be making, with the additional note that it's a continuum rather than an either/or choice.
- asdff 7y ago
  I hate the work ethic mantra. It implies millennial just cluelessly stumbled into their jobs if they have them, or screwed up their life if they didn't. Mr. Boomer didn't need 3 summer internships and a 3.80 gpa to get their job.
algaeontoast 7y ago
As a millennial who's been saving about 80% of my take home income, I mostly believe the money problems our generation complains about (regardless of economic background, debt, etc.) is more linked to spending habits and a perception of what an "ideal" or "reasonable" lifestyle is. For instance, I have a few friends who work at JPL outside of LA. They all make $110-120k TC and have ridiculous benefits (5% contrib to 401k even if you put nothing in and if you do contribute a 7% match) with 25 days vacation etc. They still complain that they "can't afford to buy a house" when they've put off saving after paying $20k for a "modest" wedding and spend $1600 on take out each month because they're "too busy". I live within my means and still have a social life, but I'm still called cheap or questioned about "not really living" when I explain why I'm investing or saving money and not taking international vacations every 6mo.
- danielecook 7y ago
  It’s not representative. Most millenials are sub 60k and have loads of debt. You have a very skewed view. Most people can’t save 80% of their income because their housing costs are at least 30%z
  - algaeontoast 7y ago
    I also know millennials who live in NYC, have $180k+ student loan debt and continue to live as if they're making $100k a year (which doesn't go far in NYC) although they're un-employed or just doing sporadic temp work. Also - you don't have any insight into my TC... In your opinion - what constitutes "common place" both in terms of "expected lifestyle" and $$ situation (debts, money in the bank, etc)?
- imtringued 7y ago
  What you're talking about is simply impossible unless you're already rich enough in the first place or are living with your parents for free. Even if I assume that I own my apartment, only pay for maintenance/heating/food, I don't own a car and I basically never leave the house and do nothing that costs money (e.g. only contribute to open source) I don't think I can go below 600€ per month of expenses. 5x is 3000€ per month add taxes on top and we are talking about a 65k€ per year job. Sure as a software developer it shouldn't be too difficult to reach this amount. But in reality frugal/poor people get by on 1000€ per month and therefore the amount of money they'd have to earn annually to save 80% of their take home is closer to 110k€ at which point money struggles might as well not exist unless you're living in really expensive parts of the country.
Bjartr 7y ago
> The work ethic problem seems to actually exist (from my limited but numerous experiences, including my own) That's meaningless without being able to compare to previous generations when they were the same age.
malvosenior 7y ago
> Just imagine hearing your entire life that the world is just about to end any minute now, the icebergs are melting, everything is polluted, everything is so very bad, financial depression, no jobs for you, etc etc. The generations before you experienced this. We fully expected to be destroyed in nuclear holocaust at any moment. There were many nihilistic movements in part because lots of people actually believed humanity was near its end.
Zarath 7y ago
Who wants to slave away at a desk all day under fluorescent lights breathing stale air while you try to optimize some metrics that will probably get people addicted to some app or website or fool them for paying more for a product they don't really need, all the while the world outside is burning, the company you work for and the government is probably spying on whatever you're doing, people are morons, and it is unlikely to get any better. This isn't "learned helplessness", people can find jobs, they just don't want jobs that make them want to off themselves. Maybe I'm projecting here, but every NEET I know thinks this way. People need work that firmly embeds them in the present, whether that be interacting with others (NOT in some formulaic way like taking orders at a Chipotle or working in customer service), working outside, working with their hands, etc.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 7y ago
What about prior generations that had “duck and cover” exercises during school, as kids? I’m a millennial but never was exposed to this level of disaster planning as a kid, if duck and cover can be called that, more like preparation for dying.

bazooka_penguin 7y ago

Having seen boomers at work I think millennials are about par for the course. People in general are lazy and indolent, but I would say the latter is more true of old people who are set in their ways.

caconym_ 7y ago

The phrase "work ethic" pisses me off because it codes this idea that I should be a hard worker, which of course (because we live in the world we live in) refers to me busting my ass for somebody else's benefit. Anyone who wants to criticize my work ethic can go and fuck themselves. I work incredibly hard, but at my job^[1] I do as little work as I can get away with (while retaining the standing I need to be comfortable) because they pay me as little as they can get away with. I don't see the problem. ^[1] Coveted tech job. It is a "great job" and in practical terms I feel lucky to have it. None of that changes the calculus of the business relationship that is employment.

ravenstine 7y ago
> I work incredibly hard, but at my job^[1] I do as little work as I can get away with (while retaining the standing I need to be comfortable) because they pay me as little as they can get away with. I don't see the problem. A lot of people will see that as laziness, but businesses do that kind of cost-benefit adjustment all the time. If a business keeps paying a person who is working less, that's on them, not the employee.
djakjxnanjak 7y ago
I think a more reasonable attitude is that it’s usually possible to improve your material wealth with effort, and people can decide to make the trade-off if they think it’s worth it. This is not a value judgement.
- caconym_ 7y ago
  > This is not a value judgement. Where "this" is the term "work ethic"? For you, maybe not, but for others it is certainly used to articulate a value judgment, hence my dislike of the term. I don't think it's precise or accurate enough to avoid being used in this negatively loaded way. I agree that "it’s usually possible to improve your material wealth with effort, and people can decide to make the trade-off if they think it’s worth it." That is exactly the sort of trade-off I claim to be making, with the additional note that it's a continuum rather than an either/or choice.
asdff 7y ago
I hate the work ethic mantra. It implies millennial just cluelessly stumbled into their jobs if they have them, or screwed up their life if they didn't. Mr. Boomer didn't need 3 summer internships and a 3.80 gpa to get their job.

algaeontoast 7y ago

As a millennial who's been saving about 80% of my take home income, I mostly believe the money problems our generation complains about (regardless of economic background, debt, etc.) is more linked to spending habits and a perception of what an "ideal" or "reasonable" lifestyle is. For instance, I have a few friends who work at JPL outside of LA. They all make $110-120k TC and have ridiculous benefits (5% contrib to 401k even if you put nothing in and if you do contribute a 7% match) with 25 days vacation etc. They still complain that they "can't afford to buy a house" when they've put off saving after paying $20k for a "modest" wedding and spend $1600 on take out each month because they're "too busy". I live within my means and still have a social life, but I'm still called cheap or questioned about "not really living" when I explain why I'm investing or saving money and not taking international vacations every 6mo.

danielecook 7y ago
It’s not representative. Most millenials are sub 60k and have loads of debt. You have a very skewed view. Most people can’t save 80% of their income because their housing costs are at least 30%z
- algaeontoast 7y ago
  I also know millennials who live in NYC, have $180k+ student loan debt and continue to live as if they're making $100k a year (which doesn't go far in NYC) although they're un-employed or just doing sporadic temp work. Also - you don't have any insight into my TC... In your opinion - what constitutes "common place" both in terms of "expected lifestyle" and $$ situation (debts, money in the bank, etc)?
imtringued 7y ago
What you're talking about is simply impossible unless you're already rich enough in the first place or are living with your parents for free. Even if I assume that I own my apartment, only pay for maintenance/heating/food, I don't own a car and I basically never leave the house and do nothing that costs money (e.g. only contribute to open source) I don't think I can go below 600€ per month of expenses. 5x is 3000€ per month add taxes on top and we are talking about a 65k€ per year job. Sure as a software developer it shouldn't be too difficult to reach this amount. But in reality frugal/poor people get by on 1000€ per month and therefore the amount of money they'd have to earn annually to save 80% of their take home is closer to 110k€ at which point money struggles might as well not exist unless you're living in really expensive parts of the country.

Bjartr 7y ago

> The work ethic problem seems to actually exist (from my limited but numerous experiences, including my own) That's meaningless without being able to compare to previous generations when they were the same age.

malvosenior 7y ago

> Just imagine hearing your entire life that the world is just about to end any minute now, the icebergs are melting, everything is polluted, everything is so very bad, financial depression, no jobs for you, etc etc. The generations before you experienced this. We fully expected to be destroyed in nuclear holocaust at any moment. There were many nihilistic movements in part because lots of people actually believed humanity was near its end.

Zarath 7y ago

Who wants to slave away at a desk all day under fluorescent lights breathing stale air while you try to optimize some metrics that will probably get people addicted to some app or website or fool them for paying more for a product they don't really need, all the while the world outside is burning, the company you work for and the government is probably spying on whatever you're doing, people are morons, and it is unlikely to get any better. This isn't "learned helplessness", people can find jobs, they just don't want jobs that make them want to off themselves. Maybe I'm projecting here, but every NEET I know thinks this way. People need work that firmly embeds them in the present, whether that be interacting with others (NOT in some formulaic way like taking orders at a Chipotle or working in customer service), working outside, working with their hands, etc.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 7y ago

What about prior generations that had “duck and cover” exercises during school, as kids? I’m a millennial but never was exposed to this level of disaster planning as a kid, if duck and cover can be called that, more like preparation for dying.