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MicroG – Re-implementation of proprietary Android apps and libraries

484 points by xvilka 7y ago

cdubzzz 7y ago
I recently looked at this while reviving a trusty old Samsung S4, but ultimately just went with Enhanced LOS and no gapps. F-Droid has pretty much everything I really need. It’s kind of amazing how well supported this stuff is by the community, I am tempted to move away from the Apple ecosystem for my regular phone.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  The big things F-Droid is missing are apps based on services. Social media, banking, communication apps, commerce apps, media streaming apps. For most people, these are most of the things they use their primary mobile devices for. APKMirror can get you some of those, but some have been pulled and others require Google Services (which is where MicroG comes in).
  - cdubzzz 7y ago
    That's fair. That is most of what is on my regular phone, but I also think sometimes about how very little I use those things. My primary apps are Firefox, Mail, SeaFile, KeePass, HERE We Go, and Telegram. Those account for surely 95% of my app usage and I think HERE We Go is the only one not supported in that list.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      It varies by person; I use them all the time and that's why I gave up on using LineageOS to forego Google. I couldn't listen to my Pandora stations, I couldn't get Slack notifications from work, I couldn't check my bank account. I once had to return some headphones because they required an app and it wouldn't work. My phone basically became nothing but a web browser and... a phone. The choice is basically: 1. Privacy 2. Freedom of customization 3. Full participation in modern society Pick two. I had 1 and 2, and ended up resigning myself to 1 and 3 and getting an iPhone.
      - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
        You can still use LineageOS with GApps to maintain stronger control over permissions.
        _bxg1 7y ago
        Some apps break when you block certain permissions, and it can't do anything against Google Services themselves.
        mcv 7y ago
        What I want is not to block certain permissions, but to fake them. Let it think it's got access to my contacts, but it's only going to see a few fake contacts.
  - drewmol 7y ago
    >APKMirror can get you some of those, but some have been pulled and others require Google Services (which is where MicroG comes in). IME F-Droid usually has a working play store alternative/wrapper for those cases. Currently, "Yalp Store" has been reliable for my Play store needs over the past year. My bank keeps locking out old apk versions so Yalp Store comes in handy. Edit: Yalp not Yelp. Don't get a Yelp app.
    - amaccuish 7y ago
      "Yalp". It's "Play" reversed.
- e1ven 7y ago
  I'm curious how well this went - The microG site says that some OSS apps are requiring Google libraries. Have you run into a problem here?
  - floatboth 7y ago
    Even non-OSS apps that "require" Google services usually work fine without them.
  - cdubzzz 7y ago
    I haven't run in to any problems, but I also haven't been using the phone exclusively so my experience is very limited. It would be interesting to know exactly which apps are affected by that though...
  - _underfl0w_ 7y ago
    In my experience (running Lineage + microG for a month or so now) the main issue is with in-app purchases like "Pro" versions of things or subscriptions. There are various workarounds to make it happen, but I haven't had any success. I've tried using the NanoDroid patched Phonesky apk but no luck on my Pixel. Some apps attempt to check their license via PlayStore on startup and won't acknowledge your license otherwise (e.g. TitaniumBackup, DarkSky) Others require play services to download additional stuff and refuse to function without it - e.g. Monument Valley. Some work fine when the pro version is restored via TitaniumBackup, though - Solid Explorer is one example.
archi42 7y ago
I'm using this on a HTC 10 for 9 to 12 months now (on an inofficial LineageOS build). Only major quality of life issue is the lack of system-wide weather data (e.g. Garmin Connect is unable to display weather on my fitness tracker). Minor annoyances are the absence of the pretty good Google Maps (though I've heard good things about Here Maps on HN) and that Volvo on Call seems to have some trouble with rendering the replacement OSM map data; but I only installed VoC recently, so I could not check this on a Google-infected Android, plus that feature is not that important (and if I'll ever be too drunk to find my car that's probably a good thing after all). Two friends of mine migrated from Windows Phone directly to Samsung Galaxy S... uhm, not sure, 8 or 7 I think... with LineageOS+MicroG, and are quite happy as well.
- codethief 7y ago
  > Minor annoyances are the absence of the pretty good Google Maps I don't understand. What prevents you from installing Google Maps on your phone? It works perfectly fine on mine. (I'm running the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS. [1]) [1] https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
  - chasil 7y ago
    I use MapsGo, which requires Chrome. These run well on MicroG/Lineage, and I also was unable to run the full Maps APK.
  - archi42 7y ago
    Hm, not wanting Google on my device? ;-) But yeah, I could probably use it.
    - codethief 7y ago
      So you're not using Google search, either, I assume? Just curious because while I absolutely understand your aversion torwards Google, I do think it's more sensible sometimes to strike a good balance between privacy concerns and comfort/laziness than to completely sacrifice one for the other.
cfarm 7y ago
Response to the Huawei ban?
- pedrocx486 7y ago
  Nope, this is quite an old and mature project. Maybe it'll grow more in response to that.
  - cfarm 7y ago
    An appstore equivalent would allow developers to bypass the appstore revenue cut.
    - TheRealPomax 7y ago
      what is this in response to? The App Store is a different ecosystem running on a different operating system designed for different hardware owned by a different company entirely?
      - cfarm 7y ago
        I believe that Huawei no longer will have access to Google Play.
        yorwba 7y ago
        https://appstore.huawei.com/ https://appstore.huawei.com/ ?
        cfarm 7y ago
        Sure this is Huawei's store, but if you were born in Europe, there's no chance that you would download something from here. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/business/huawei-trump-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/business/huawei-trump-chi...
rodneyzeng 7y ago
Huawei would hope this could be used. Definitely.
_bxg1 7y ago
Something I've wondered- does this allow you to totally forego Google's web APIs? I.e., sending any data to Google at all? Or is it just that the local code is open source?
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  This is just a local code replacement. It still uses Google services, and it wouldn't work any other way, since many Google APIs that Play Services interacts with connect to Google accounts. The site does claim that you can more readily monitor and restrict what data is sent to Google with microG compared to Play Services though.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    Since many of the google services are for generic things like notifications and location, I've heard it can spoof at least some of those. I was more asking whether it can work as a wholesale boycott, or only partial.
    - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
      The challenge is that "notifications" tend to be treated like a service now. Push notifications delivered "from an app" actually come from Google services to your device. Which is why sometimes you get a notification "from an app", and open the app, and it still has to sync before it shows what you were notified of already. To replace Google in this transaction, the app developer would need to pipe their notification pushes to your alternative server. Amazon and Microsoft have both played with replacing Google's location API, basically by using their own location service but formatting it like a response from Google though. On the Fire Phone/Kindle line, and Microsoft's Android layer they built and abandoned for Windows Phone respectively.
- codethief 7y ago
  AFAIK MicroG doesn't send any data to Google unless you explicitly tell it to. Here are some situations where you might want to do that: - You might want to enable the Google Cloud Messaging feature inside MicroG, so that your apps can receive push notifications just like they would on a regular Google phone. - SafetyNet. If you want some app to work that requires Google SafetyNet, your phone will necessarily have to communicate with the Google servers. MicroG provides functionality to do that. (Though, if you're worried about your phone's security, I strongly advise against using this feature because SafetyNet essentially requires the phone to download and run a binary blob from the Google servers.) - If you want to install apps from the Play Store you will have to install the Google Play Store app or at least some open-source alternative like YalpStore or Aurora Store both of which will obviously download the .apks from and therefore connect to the Google servers. However, this has nothing to do with MicroG per se. Anyway, you decide all this for yourself. If you don't want your phone to connect to Google at all, that's perfectly possible. UPDATE: Indeed, I just checked and found a setting in MicroG saying "Allow connecting to Google servers. If disabled, all connections to Google servers usually done by microG will be denied. This overrides service-specific settings."
est31 7y ago
Most of the proprietary Google apps on Android are actually just frontends to their proprietary network services like play, maps, gmail, gms, firebase, etc. Giving a replacement that deserves the name means that you have to re-create the associated network services which is the actually hard part because you won't just get shop owners to upload their opening hours to your service as well as google maps. That's an immense competitive moat that Google has built. It's on the territory where they are strongest, providing network services. And it's part of the reason why they could open source the Android OS in the first place: no competitor manages to replicate all of those network services.
- wybiral 7y ago
  There are other reasons why an open source implementation is useful even if it relies on some proprietary backend stuff (like being able to review the code running directly on your device). And I think it's more interesting in the context of the recent Huewai/Android story.
- jasonjayr 7y ago
  Is there any effort to define a customer-facing standard for information like this? /.well-known/location_list /.well-known/location/<code>/open_hours /.well-known/location/<code>/phone /.well-known/location/<code>/<other_metadata> etc? Or even on-page microformats. Google used to do this until they got big enough that they didn't have to anymore. This would probably be the only way we could chip away at that moat, and ensure we don't fall into that trap again.
  - hannob 7y ago
    Yes. It was called the semantic web, but it never took off.
    - z3t4 7y ago
      The semantic web failed due to HTML being a format for humans. Where humans need to enter for them unnecessary extra data so the machines could understand what the humans already understood. There should be a (URL maybe?) scheme for machines generated by machines with standard properties like open hours, site category, etc.
DivestTrump 7y ago
Google requires a comprehensive privacy policy for apps and there are plenty of policy generators, but they don't make their own library specific privacy policies easy to find in my experience. Just using Google Play has privacy implications and it's a mess trying to track down and link proper policies without seeming like your app is stealing users social security numbers. It's possible I just have no idea what I'm doing, but I shouldn't need to hire a lawyer for an app that collects zero data by itself.
djsumdog 7y ago
I'm glad this is still being maintained. It's a really great way to still run popular apps without having to go the entire F-Droid/OSS only route. My current phone no longer charges and I've already replaced so much stuff on it (back, camera, etc.) that I'm deciding to go the KDE Plasma route, starting with a new old-stock Nexus 5X. I hope the Purism 5 and Pinephone get released as well. I really want to go the Plasma route. If there is tooling I need that's missing, I hope it will force me to write and contribute apps that can help myself and others. We need a real open source mobile operating system, not Google's cripple-ware.
- xvf22 7y ago
  Watch out for the 5x, I've seen 3 in addition to mine die the same way. They start rebooting randomly then boot loop. It's an acknowledged problem with the chipset. You can sort of fix it if you are able to load an alternative kernel [0] on it that disabled the big cores and that bought me another few months before it totally died. If you're willing to risk it you can get a higher RAM version of the motherboard on aliexpress where they may have used better solder. [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/nexus-5x-bootloop-fix-boot-phone/ https://www.xda-developers.com/nexus-5x-bootloop-fix-boot-ph...
  - manuelisimo 7y ago
    I was planning on keeping my 5X for years and years, but it died on my this same way
    - xvf22 7y ago
      It was a great phone otherwise but eventually the core patch started boot looping which a reflow fixed for a few weeks before it finally completely died. Ended up getting a OnePlus 6 and it's been fine but I wish I had the 5x as a travel / backup phone. Still rocking my old Galaxy Nexus for that purpose with a custom rom. [0] [0] https://zeelogkang.blogspot.com/2017/05/lineageos-141-unofficial-712-gnex-tuna.html?m=1 https://zeelogkang.blogspot.com/2017/05/lineageos-141-unoffi...
    - 7y ago
NamPNQ 7y ago
Look like dead project
- e1ven 7y ago
  Their Github (github.com/microg) shows activity over the last month. What gives you the impression it's dead?
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  Far from it, actually. Check the git log or look around on XDA - this is slowly becoming the de facto GApps replacement.
Frenchgeek 7y ago
Now if I could find a working ROM for my Landvo V1 (failed rooting)... That would be a nice thing to play with
- cyphar 7y ago
  I imagine you've already tried https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/?
  - Frenchgeek 7y ago
    Since it's a cheap chinese phone, unless I find my self with the talent and motivation to do a port myself, nothing support it.
    - _underfl0w_ 7y ago
      Google around for a project called NanoDroid (I'm not affiliated) That guy has released a ROM patcher for most AOSP ROMs that can add in signature spoofing support. IIRC there was also flashable tooling for removing GApps from your device. You'd need a custom recovery, though. Just flash your stock vendor image, remove GApps, flash the patcher, then flash microG. I'm simplifying a bit, but it might be possible. https://forum.xda-developers.com/apps/magisk/module-nanomod-5-0-20170405-microg-t3584928 https://forum.xda-developers.com/apps/magisk/module-nanomod-... https://gitlab.com/Nanolx/NanoDroid https://gitlab.com/Nanolx/NanoDroid
      - Frenchgeek 7y ago
        That's the thing: there is no (working) stock vendor image for it.
codethief 7y ago
MicroG is a fantastic project! I wouldn't know what to do without it! (×) For anyone who wants a really easy way to install and use LineageOS with MicroG, consider going for the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ It's basically pure LineageOS with a small patch that allows MicroG to spoof the Google services' signatures. The ROM supports all the devices regularly supported by LineageOS and even gets weekly OTA updates, too. (×) In case you agree, consider donating to the project: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/microg https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/microg (or, if you want a specific issue to be solved, you can put a bounty on it, too: https://bountysource.com/teams/microg https://bountysource.com/teams/microg )
- dessant 7y ago
  Does the patch allow the spoofing of Google packages only, or are signature checks disabled for all apps?
  - SXX 7y ago
    Signature spoof require specific permission and it's only available for system apps. So there is no way any app can abuse it unless you specifically allow it.
  - codethief 7y ago
    From the FAQ on the page I linked to above: > Why do we need a custom build of LineageOS to have microG? Can't I install microG on the official LineageOS? > MicroG requires a patch called "signature spoofing", which allows the microG's apps to spoof themselves as Google Apps. LineageOS' developers refused (multiple times) to include the patch, forcing us to fork their project. > Wait, on their FAQ page I see that they don't want to include the patch for security reasons. Is this ROM unsafe? > No. LineageOS' developers decided not to include this patch for various reasons. The signature spoofing could be an unsafe feature only if the user blindly gives any permission to any app, as this permission can't be obtained automatically by the apps. Moreover, to further strengthen the security of our ROM, we modified the signature spoofing permission so that only system privileged apps can obtain it, and no security threat is posed to our users.
IloveHN84 7y ago
It would be cool to remove the original stock Google Layout and replace with microG without wiping the phone and installing a custom ROM
z3c0 7y ago
What are - if any - the security implications of the signature spoofing that MicroG requires? I've considered trying to squeeze MicroG into GrapheneOS, but GrapheneOS currently doesn't support signature spoofing. LineageOS does, but unfortunately my device isn't supported by LineageOS.
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  If an app has the permission to spoof signatures (which must be specified in its manifest - I.e. it's not a permission that's grantable with `pm` ) it can spoof itself as being any other app, if my understanding is correct. This opens the door to sketchy apps pretending to be system apps, then man-in-the-middling your data, potentially leaking sensitive info, etc. Generally the signatures are there as a tamper-proofing mechanism. Some builds (e.g. official-ish LineageOS for MicroG ROMs) have a hardcoded notification that's shown for the signature spoof permission so it can't happen in the background, though. The possibility of widening the attack surface just triggers security paranoia in those of us ditching Big G for privacy reasons - that's why there's controversy over it at all.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  The microg lineageOS builds only allow system apps to spoof signatures so it should be fine. And even if any app could do it its still only bad if you get apps from an untrusted source.
- krageon 7y ago
  (Vanilla) LineageOS does not support signature spoofing, only the MicroG fork of it does.
ktosobcy 7y ago
would be awesome to be able 'play services' implementation like you select launcher, without the need to rely on Google (and one woild select microG, which works great... and push is optional)
OrgNet 7y ago
While this is cool (and old), it is only a band-aid... it would be much better if the mobile apps would be native linux apps or maybe web-apps
amaccuish 7y ago
This worked great when I had an android (I replaced with an iPhone since I wanted easy privacy). Worked for most things, the maps and location part was most dodgy though. Uber was almost impossible to use and Grindr stopped working. Other than that, things like G/FCM worked perfectly.
- Liquix 7y ago
  Location is definitely the weakest link in the MicroG/Lineage ecosystem. Does anyone have any idea why this is? Are the open source location provider backends just not as robust as Google's?
  - _underfl0w_ 7y ago
    It may just be a matter of data disparity - who really has more info to correlate multiple data points and triangulate you? Big G or one offline data provider? That said, I've actually (anecdotally, I guess) seen an improvement in the speed with which my device can locate me with LineageOS + microG. I've been using Unified NLP with the GSM location backend that you can find on F-Droid. Not sure how well this would work out if I, say, road tripped through an area without cell service - not sure if it uses ANY carrier's tower it can find (that your baseband supports) or just your carrier's towers. Waze finds me much faster on launch, though.
    - amaccuish 7y ago
      For me it's not so much a problem locating me but the map display. The map and pins would often not be in sync etc.
  - commoner 7y ago
    Most MicroG users get their location data from Mozilla Location Services: https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://github.com/microg/IchnaeaNlpBackend https://github.com/microg/IchnaeaNlpBackend If you want to improve the data quality in your area, you can use the Mozilla Stumbler: https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.mozstumbler https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.mozs... Firefox for Android also lets you opt in to help improve Mozilla Location Services whenever Firefox makes a location request. This is equivalent to using the Stumbler app (and you should check its battery/RAM usage to make sure this setting is acceptable for you): https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/improve-mozilla-location-services-turning-location https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/improve-mozilla-locatio...
neilv 7y ago
A downside to MicroG is that it relieves some of the demand coming from people averse to Google snooping, so there's less demand for a genuine alternative. Running MicroG makes you still under Google's thumb. Additionally, Google can pull the rug out from under you at any time (by breaking MicroG with technical changes, or ToS). (Personally, I've temporarily switched to a dumbphone for essential voice/SMS, while PostmarketOS gets developed for various Web/app purposes, and am also looking at the Librem 5 work.)
GreeniFi 7y ago
Can anyone comment on Dutch attitudes in this respect? The Dutch I have worked with could come across as very confident - even when very obviously wrong. I’ve found it a little confusing: they sound like they’re right, but what they’re saying is incorrect! In Anglo culture people tend to be a little more circumspect when there is the potential to be wrong. I had a Dutch boss, who once said, “you never put forward something as your opinion, you always state a secondary source. Why?”. I said it was to give credence to what I was saying, because I myself am only one data source. His answer was, “oh, that is very honest”. I never really understood that.
- sangnoir 7y ago
  You might need to explain what "Anglo" culture means in this context - is it just "British", or short for "Anglo-American"? In my personal experience, Americans can come off (to non-Americans) pretty much as you described your Dutch boss.
- yorwba 7y ago
  It looks like you're posting in the wrong thread.
  - GreeniFi 7y ago
    So I did. How did that happen?
m-p-3 7y ago
Is that something a company like Huawei could use to skirt around the Google ban?
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Maybe. Google could probably find a way to block it if they tried. A lot of this custom android stuff only works because Google put no effort in to stop it.
olalonde 7y ago
Not an Android dev here... What's the IPC mechanism used to communicate with those services?
- rstat1 7y ago
  The version of the Linux kernel used in Android implements a custom IPC mechanism called Binder that userspace services and apps use, which I think (though I could be wrong) is based on some kind of also custom-made shared memory facility.
paulrd 7y ago
Didn't read the article, but people reading the article might be interested in Termux: https://termux.com/ https://termux.com/
jimbo1qaz 7y ago
- MicroG felt somewhat unmaintained, it took months for my bugfix PR to get merged. Maybe it's better now? idk... Nanodroid's fork was more active at the time, but idk if it's trustworthy or still active. - Getting SafetyNet to pass on Lineage-MicroG required installing the pirate/ad-remover app Lucky Patcher (which comes with some questionable adware) and using it to patch away APK installation signature checks. Lineage-MicroG's built in spoofing doesn't work. - Hangouts would crash at launch unless you disabled some https/pinning/etc. I heard it was fixed.
unixhero 7y ago
Doesn't work anymore on my Galaxy S10 Plus :(

484 points by xvilka 7y ago

I recently looked at this while reviving a trusty old Samsung S4, but ultimately just went with Enhanced LOS and no gapps. F-Droid has pretty much everything I really need. It’s kind of amazing how well supported this stuff is by the community, I am tempted to move away from the Apple ecosystem for my regular phone.

_bxg1 7y ago
The big things F-Droid is missing are apps based on services. Social media, banking, communication apps, commerce apps, media streaming apps. For most people, these are most of the things they use their primary mobile devices for. APKMirror can get you some of those, but some have been pulled and others require Google Services (which is where MicroG comes in).
- cdubzzz 7y ago
  That's fair. That is most of what is on my regular phone, but I also think sometimes about how very little I use those things. My primary apps are Firefox, Mail, SeaFile, KeePass, HERE We Go, and Telegram. Those account for surely 95% of my app usage and I think HERE We Go is the only one not supported in that list.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    It varies by person; I use them all the time and that's why I gave up on using LineageOS to forego Google. I couldn't listen to my Pandora stations, I couldn't get Slack notifications from work, I couldn't check my bank account. I once had to return some headphones because they required an app and it wouldn't work. My phone basically became nothing but a web browser and... a phone. The choice is basically: 1. Privacy 2. Freedom of customization 3. Full participation in modern society Pick two. I had 1 and 2, and ended up resigning myself to 1 and 3 and getting an iPhone.
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      You can still use LineageOS with GApps to maintain stronger control over permissions.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        Some apps break when you block certain permissions, and it can't do anything against Google Services themselves.
        mcv 7y ago
        What I want is not to block certain permissions, but to fake them. Let it think it's got access to my contacts, but it's only going to see a few fake contacts.
- drewmol 7y ago
  >APKMirror can get you some of those, but some have been pulled and others require Google Services (which is where MicroG comes in). IME F-Droid usually has a working play store alternative/wrapper for those cases. Currently, "Yalp Store" has been reliable for my Play store needs over the past year. My bank keeps locking out old apk versions so Yalp Store comes in handy. Edit: Yalp not Yelp. Don't get a Yelp app.
  - amaccuish 7y ago
    "Yalp". It's "Play" reversed.
e1ven 7y ago
I'm curious how well this went - The microG site says that some OSS apps are requiring Google libraries. Have you run into a problem here?
- floatboth 7y ago
  Even non-OSS apps that "require" Google services usually work fine without them.
- cdubzzz 7y ago
  I haven't run in to any problems, but I also haven't been using the phone exclusively so my experience is very limited. It would be interesting to know exactly which apps are affected by that though...
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  In my experience (running Lineage + microG for a month or so now) the main issue is with in-app purchases like "Pro" versions of things or subscriptions. There are various workarounds to make it happen, but I haven't had any success. I've tried using the NanoDroid patched Phonesky apk but no luck on my Pixel. Some apps attempt to check their license via PlayStore on startup and won't acknowledge your license otherwise (e.g. TitaniumBackup, DarkSky) Others require play services to download additional stuff and refuse to function without it - e.g. Monument Valley. Some work fine when the pro version is restored via TitaniumBackup, though - Solid Explorer is one example.

archi42 7y ago

I'm using this on a HTC 10 for 9 to 12 months now (on an inofficial LineageOS build). Only major quality of life issue is the lack of system-wide weather data (e.g. Garmin Connect is unable to display weather on my fitness tracker). Minor annoyances are the absence of the pretty good Google Maps (though I've heard good things about Here Maps on HN) and that Volvo on Call seems to have some trouble with rendering the replacement OSM map data; but I only installed VoC recently, so I could not check this on a Google-infected Android, plus that feature is not that important (and if I'll ever be too drunk to find my car that's probably a good thing after all). Two friends of mine migrated from Windows Phone directly to Samsung Galaxy S... uhm, not sure, 8 or 7 I think... with LineageOS+MicroG, and are quite happy as well.

codethief 7y ago
> Minor annoyances are the absence of the pretty good Google Maps I don't understand. What prevents you from installing Google Maps on your phone? It works perfectly fine on mine. (I'm running the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS. [1]) [1] https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
- chasil 7y ago
  I use MapsGo, which requires Chrome. These run well on MicroG/Lineage, and I also was unable to run the full Maps APK.
- archi42 7y ago
  Hm, not wanting Google on my device? ;-) But yeah, I could probably use it.
  - codethief 7y ago
    So you're not using Google search, either, I assume? Just curious because while I absolutely understand your aversion torwards Google, I do think it's more sensible sometimes to strike a good balance between privacy concerns and comfort/laziness than to completely sacrifice one for the other.

cfarm 7y ago

Response to the Huawei ban?

pedrocx486 7y ago
Nope, this is quite an old and mature project. Maybe it'll grow more in response to that.
- cfarm 7y ago
  An appstore equivalent would allow developers to bypass the appstore revenue cut.
  - TheRealPomax 7y ago
    what is this in response to? The App Store is a different ecosystem running on a different operating system designed for different hardware owned by a different company entirely?
    - cfarm 7y ago
      I believe that Huawei no longer will have access to Google Play.
      - yorwba 7y ago
        https://appstore.huawei.com/ https://appstore.huawei.com/ ?
        cfarm 7y ago
        Sure this is Huawei's store, but if you were born in Europe, there's no chance that you would download something from here. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/business/huawei-trump-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/business/huawei-trump-chi...

rodneyzeng 7y ago

Huawei would hope this could be used. Definitely.

_bxg1 7y ago

Something I've wondered- does this allow you to totally forego Google's web APIs? I.e., sending any data to Google at all? Or is it just that the local code is open source?

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
This is just a local code replacement. It still uses Google services, and it wouldn't work any other way, since many Google APIs that Play Services interacts with connect to Google accounts. The site does claim that you can more readily monitor and restrict what data is sent to Google with microG compared to Play Services though.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Since many of the google services are for generic things like notifications and location, I've heard it can spoof at least some of those. I was more asking whether it can work as a wholesale boycott, or only partial.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    The challenge is that "notifications" tend to be treated like a service now. Push notifications delivered "from an app" actually come from Google services to your device. Which is why sometimes you get a notification "from an app", and open the app, and it still has to sync before it shows what you were notified of already. To replace Google in this transaction, the app developer would need to pipe their notification pushes to your alternative server. Amazon and Microsoft have both played with replacing Google's location API, basically by using their own location service but formatting it like a response from Google though. On the Fire Phone/Kindle line, and Microsoft's Android layer they built and abandoned for Windows Phone respectively.
codethief 7y ago
AFAIK MicroG doesn't send any data to Google unless you explicitly tell it to. Here are some situations where you might want to do that: - You might want to enable the Google Cloud Messaging feature inside MicroG, so that your apps can receive push notifications just like they would on a regular Google phone. - SafetyNet. If you want some app to work that requires Google SafetyNet, your phone will necessarily have to communicate with the Google servers. MicroG provides functionality to do that. (Though, if you're worried about your phone's security, I strongly advise against using this feature because SafetyNet essentially requires the phone to download and run a binary blob from the Google servers.) - If you want to install apps from the Play Store you will have to install the Google Play Store app or at least some open-source alternative like YalpStore or Aurora Store both of which will obviously download the .apks from and therefore connect to the Google servers. However, this has nothing to do with MicroG per se. Anyway, you decide all this for yourself. If you don't want your phone to connect to Google at all, that's perfectly possible. UPDATE: Indeed, I just checked and found a setting in MicroG saying "Allow connecting to Google servers. If disabled, all connections to Google servers usually done by microG will be denied. This overrides service-specific settings."

est31 7y ago

Most of the proprietary Google apps on Android are actually just frontends to their proprietary network services like play, maps, gmail, gms, firebase, etc. Giving a replacement that deserves the name means that you have to re-create the associated network services which is the actually hard part because you won't just get shop owners to upload their opening hours to your service as well as google maps. That's an immense competitive moat that Google has built. It's on the territory where they are strongest, providing network services. And it's part of the reason why they could open source the Android OS in the first place: no competitor manages to replicate all of those network services.

wybiral 7y ago
There are other reasons why an open source implementation is useful even if it relies on some proprietary backend stuff (like being able to review the code running directly on your device). And I think it's more interesting in the context of the recent Huewai/Android story.
jasonjayr 7y ago
Is there any effort to define a customer-facing standard for information like this? /.well-known/location_list /.well-known/location/<code>/open_hours /.well-known/location/<code>/phone /.well-known/location/<code>/<other_metadata> etc? Or even on-page microformats. Google used to do this until they got big enough that they didn't have to anymore. This would probably be the only way we could chip away at that moat, and ensure we don't fall into that trap again.
- hannob 7y ago
  Yes. It was called the semantic web, but it never took off.
  - z3t4 7y ago
    The semantic web failed due to HTML being a format for humans. Where humans need to enter for them unnecessary extra data so the machines could understand what the humans already understood. There should be a (URL maybe?) scheme for machines generated by machines with standard properties like open hours, site category, etc.

DivestTrump 7y ago

Google requires a comprehensive privacy policy for apps and there are plenty of policy generators, but they don't make their own library specific privacy policies easy to find in my experience. Just using Google Play has privacy implications and it's a mess trying to track down and link proper policies without seeming like your app is stealing users social security numbers. It's possible I just have no idea what I'm doing, but I shouldn't need to hire a lawyer for an app that collects zero data by itself.

djsumdog 7y ago

I'm glad this is still being maintained. It's a really great way to still run popular apps without having to go the entire F-Droid/OSS only route. My current phone no longer charges and I've already replaced so much stuff on it (back, camera, etc.) that I'm deciding to go the KDE Plasma route, starting with a new old-stock Nexus 5X. I hope the Purism 5 and Pinephone get released as well. I really want to go the Plasma route. If there is tooling I need that's missing, I hope it will force me to write and contribute apps that can help myself and others. We need a real open source mobile operating system, not Google's cripple-ware.

xvf22 7y ago
Watch out for the 5x, I've seen 3 in addition to mine die the same way. They start rebooting randomly then boot loop. It's an acknowledged problem with the chipset. You can sort of fix it if you are able to load an alternative kernel [0] on it that disabled the big cores and that bought me another few months before it totally died. If you're willing to risk it you can get a higher RAM version of the motherboard on aliexpress where they may have used better solder. [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/nexus-5x-bootloop-fix-boot-phone/ https://www.xda-developers.com/nexus-5x-bootloop-fix-boot-ph...
- manuelisimo 7y ago
  I was planning on keeping my 5X for years and years, but it died on my this same way
  - xvf22 7y ago
    It was a great phone otherwise but eventually the core patch started boot looping which a reflow fixed for a few weeks before it finally completely died. Ended up getting a OnePlus 6 and it's been fine but I wish I had the 5x as a travel / backup phone. Still rocking my old Galaxy Nexus for that purpose with a custom rom. [0] [0] https://zeelogkang.blogspot.com/2017/05/lineageos-141-unofficial-712-gnex-tuna.html?m=1 https://zeelogkang.blogspot.com/2017/05/lineageos-141-unoffi...
  - 7y ago

NamPNQ 7y ago

Look like dead project

e1ven 7y ago
Their Github (github.com/microg) shows activity over the last month. What gives you the impression it's dead?
_underfl0w_ 7y ago
Far from it, actually. Check the git log or look around on XDA - this is slowly becoming the de facto GApps replacement.

Frenchgeek 7y ago

Now if I could find a working ROM for my Landvo V1 (failed rooting)... That would be a nice thing to play with

cyphar 7y ago
I imagine you've already tried https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/?
- Frenchgeek 7y ago
  Since it's a cheap chinese phone, unless I find my self with the talent and motivation to do a port myself, nothing support it.
  - _underfl0w_ 7y ago
    Google around for a project called NanoDroid (I'm not affiliated) That guy has released a ROM patcher for most AOSP ROMs that can add in signature spoofing support. IIRC there was also flashable tooling for removing GApps from your device. You'd need a custom recovery, though. Just flash your stock vendor image, remove GApps, flash the patcher, then flash microG. I'm simplifying a bit, but it might be possible. https://forum.xda-developers.com/apps/magisk/module-nanomod-5-0-20170405-microg-t3584928 https://forum.xda-developers.com/apps/magisk/module-nanomod-... https://gitlab.com/Nanolx/NanoDroid https://gitlab.com/Nanolx/NanoDroid
    - Frenchgeek 7y ago
      That's the thing: there is no (working) stock vendor image for it.

codethief 7y ago

MicroG is a fantastic project! I wouldn't know what to do without it! (×) For anyone who wants a really easy way to install and use LineageOS with MicroG, consider going for the MicroG-infused version of LineageOS: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/ It's basically pure LineageOS with a small patch that allows MicroG to spoof the Google services' signatures. The ROM supports all the devices regularly supported by LineageOS and even gets weekly OTA updates, too. (×) In case you agree, consider donating to the project: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/microg https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/microg (or, if you want a specific issue to be solved, you can put a bounty on it, too: https://bountysource.com/teams/microg https://bountysource.com/teams/microg )

dessant 7y ago
Does the patch allow the spoofing of Google packages only, or are signature checks disabled for all apps?
- SXX 7y ago
  Signature spoof require specific permission and it's only available for system apps. So there is no way any app can abuse it unless you specifically allow it.
- codethief 7y ago
  From the FAQ on the page I linked to above: > Why do we need a custom build of LineageOS to have microG? Can't I install microG on the official LineageOS? > MicroG requires a patch called "signature spoofing", which allows the microG's apps to spoof themselves as Google Apps. LineageOS' developers refused (multiple times) to include the patch, forcing us to fork their project. > Wait, on their FAQ page I see that they don't want to include the patch for security reasons. Is this ROM unsafe? > No. LineageOS' developers decided not to include this patch for various reasons. The signature spoofing could be an unsafe feature only if the user blindly gives any permission to any app, as this permission can't be obtained automatically by the apps. Moreover, to further strengthen the security of our ROM, we modified the signature spoofing permission so that only system privileged apps can obtain it, and no security threat is posed to our users.

IloveHN84 7y ago

It would be cool to remove the original stock Google Layout and replace with microG without wiping the phone and installing a custom ROM

z3c0 7y ago

What are - if any - the security implications of the signature spoofing that MicroG requires? I've considered trying to squeeze MicroG into GrapheneOS, but GrapheneOS currently doesn't support signature spoofing. LineageOS does, but unfortunately my device isn't supported by LineageOS.

_underfl0w_ 7y ago
If an app has the permission to spoof signatures (which must be specified in its manifest - I.e. it's not a permission that's grantable with `pm` ) it can spoof itself as being any other app, if my understanding is correct. This opens the door to sketchy apps pretending to be system apps, then man-in-the-middling your data, potentially leaking sensitive info, etc. Generally the signatures are there as a tamper-proofing mechanism. Some builds (e.g. official-ish LineageOS for MicroG ROMs) have a hardcoded notification that's shown for the signature spoof permission so it can't happen in the background, though. The possibility of widening the attack surface just triggers security paranoia in those of us ditching Big G for privacy reasons - that's why there's controversy over it at all.
baroffoos 7y ago
The microg lineageOS builds only allow system apps to spoof signatures so it should be fine. And even if any app could do it its still only bad if you get apps from an untrusted source.
krageon 7y ago
(Vanilla) LineageOS does not support signature spoofing, only the MicroG fork of it does.

ktosobcy 7y ago

would be awesome to be able 'play services' implementation like you select launcher, without the need to rely on Google (and one woild select microG, which works great... and push is optional)

OrgNet 7y ago

While this is cool (and old), it is only a band-aid... it would be much better if the mobile apps would be native linux apps or maybe web-apps

amaccuish 7y ago

This worked great when I had an android (I replaced with an iPhone since I wanted easy privacy). Worked for most things, the maps and location part was most dodgy though. Uber was almost impossible to use and Grindr stopped working. Other than that, things like G/FCM worked perfectly.

Liquix 7y ago
Location is definitely the weakest link in the MicroG/Lineage ecosystem. Does anyone have any idea why this is? Are the open source location provider backends just not as robust as Google's?
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  It may just be a matter of data disparity - who really has more info to correlate multiple data points and triangulate you? Big G or one offline data provider? That said, I've actually (anecdotally, I guess) seen an improvement in the speed with which my device can locate me with LineageOS + microG. I've been using Unified NLP with the GSM location backend that you can find on F-Droid. Not sure how well this would work out if I, say, road tripped through an area without cell service - not sure if it uses ANY carrier's tower it can find (that your baseband supports) or just your carrier's towers. Waze finds me much faster on launch, though.
  - amaccuish 7y ago
    For me it's not so much a problem locating me but the map display. The map and pins would often not be in sync etc.
- commoner 7y ago
  Most MicroG users get their location data from Mozilla Location Services: https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://github.com/microg/IchnaeaNlpBackend https://github.com/microg/IchnaeaNlpBackend If you want to improve the data quality in your area, you can use the Mozilla Stumbler: https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.mozstumbler https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.mozilla.mozs... Firefox for Android also lets you opt in to help improve Mozilla Location Services whenever Firefox makes a location request. This is equivalent to using the Stumbler app (and you should check its battery/RAM usage to make sure this setting is acceptable for you): https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/improve-mozilla-location-services-turning-location https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/improve-mozilla-locatio...

neilv 7y ago

A downside to MicroG is that it relieves some of the demand coming from people averse to Google snooping, so there's less demand for a genuine alternative. Running MicroG makes you still under Google's thumb. Additionally, Google can pull the rug out from under you at any time (by breaking MicroG with technical changes, or ToS). (Personally, I've temporarily switched to a dumbphone for essential voice/SMS, while PostmarketOS gets developed for various Web/app purposes, and am also looking at the Librem 5 work.)

GreeniFi 7y ago

Can anyone comment on Dutch attitudes in this respect? The Dutch I have worked with could come across as very confident - even when very obviously wrong. I’ve found it a little confusing: they sound like they’re right, but what they’re saying is incorrect! In Anglo culture people tend to be a little more circumspect when there is the potential to be wrong. I had a Dutch boss, who once said, “you never put forward something as your opinion, you always state a secondary source. Why?”. I said it was to give credence to what I was saying, because I myself am only one data source. His answer was, “oh, that is very honest”. I never really understood that.

sangnoir 7y ago
You might need to explain what "Anglo" culture means in this context - is it just "British", or short for "Anglo-American"? In my personal experience, Americans can come off (to non-Americans) pretty much as you described your Dutch boss.
yorwba 7y ago
It looks like you're posting in the wrong thread.
- GreeniFi 7y ago
  So I did. How did that happen?

m-p-3 7y ago

Is that something a company like Huawei could use to skirt around the Google ban?

baroffoos 7y ago
Maybe. Google could probably find a way to block it if they tried. A lot of this custom android stuff only works because Google put no effort in to stop it.

olalonde 7y ago

Not an Android dev here... What's the IPC mechanism used to communicate with those services?

rstat1 7y ago
The version of the Linux kernel used in Android implements a custom IPC mechanism called Binder that userspace services and apps use, which I think (though I could be wrong) is based on some kind of also custom-made shared memory facility.

paulrd 7y ago

Didn't read the article, but people reading the article might be interested in Termux: https://termux.com/ https://termux.com/

jimbo1qaz 7y ago

- MicroG felt somewhat unmaintained, it took months for my bugfix PR to get merged. Maybe it's better now? idk... Nanodroid's fork was more active at the time, but idk if it's trustworthy or still active. - Getting SafetyNet to pass on Lineage-MicroG required installing the pirate/ad-remover app Lucky Patcher (which comes with some questionable adware) and using it to patch away APK installation signature checks. Lineage-MicroG's built in spoofing doesn't work. - Hangouts would crash at launch unless you disabled some https/pinning/etc. I heard it was fixed.

unixhero 7y ago

Doesn't work anymore on my Galaxy S10 Plus :(