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Most arguments about systemd will devolve into a Motte and Bailey argument. The problems with systemd are all the stuff tacked on that are mandatory, but if yo

Most arguments about systemd will devolve into a Motte and Bailey argument. The problems with systemd are all the stuff tacked on that are mandatory, but if you criticize them you'll get people switching to try to put words into your mouth about how the init replacement is good/bad. The Motte is all the shovelware attached to systemd that is nearly impossible to detatch and the Bailey is the init replacement.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
The “shovelware” is what makes it useful.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  In my opinion, as an init script replacement, systemD is almost a great thing. Including everything else is what makes it a terrible thing.
  - eropple 7y ago
    But...it doesn't include "everything else". My desktop doesn't use systemd-timesyncd, I'm not even sure systemd-nspawn is installed on my home server, that same server isn't using systemd-resolved. I haven't fiddled with journald anywhere 'cause I like it a lot more than rsyslogd, but you totally can forward journald stuff to rsyslogd if that's more your bag (and I think, though don't quote me on that, you can remove it entirely if you want). Yes, there are additional, thoroughly optional, components to the systemd ecosystem that you can choose to opt into. And...so?
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      You can't replace journald. See the 10 times this has been referenced throughout the thread.
      - Spivak 7y ago
        The thing I don't get is how bothered people are by it existence despite being able to just forward logs to syslog and then ignore it forever. [Journald] Storage=None ForwardToSyslog=True And then it's like it was never there. But technically it's better than if it was never there because you can still capture service stdout/stderr and it will show up in the syslog where on an older system it would just be dropped.
mar77i 7y ago
Welcome to 21st century arguments. Humans used to be able to disagree and still get along, but that was boring for drama-preventing reasons. More on topic, though, I wonder: What exaclty is the relationship between Alpine Linux and ungleich.ch?
- telmich 7y ago
  There are no official ties between Alpine Linux and ungleich.ch. We at ungleich are simple people liking simple systems. And we think it is important to support systems that are not mainstream. That's why we endorse Alpine Linux.
mjw1007 7y ago
There's a lot of truth in what you're saying, but I think you have "Motte" and "Bailey" backwards.
- kevin_b_er 7y ago
  You are right! Fortunately the sense can be easily obtained.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

The “shovelware” is what makes it useful.

JohnFen 7y ago
In my opinion, as an init script replacement, systemD is almost a great thing. Including everything else is what makes it a terrible thing.
- eropple 7y ago
  But...it doesn't include "everything else". My desktop doesn't use systemd-timesyncd, I'm not even sure systemd-nspawn is installed on my home server, that same server isn't using systemd-resolved. I haven't fiddled with journald anywhere 'cause I like it a lot more than rsyslogd, but you totally can forward journald stuff to rsyslogd if that's more your bag (and I think, though don't quote me on that, you can remove it entirely if you want). Yes, there are additional, thoroughly optional, components to the systemd ecosystem that you can choose to opt into. And...so?
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    You can't replace journald. See the 10 times this has been referenced throughout the thread.
    - Spivak 7y ago
      The thing I don't get is how bothered people are by it existence despite being able to just forward logs to syslog and then ignore it forever. [Journald] Storage=None ForwardToSyslog=True And then it's like it was never there. But technically it's better than if it was never there because you can still capture service stdout/stderr and it will show up in the syslog where on an older system it would just be dropped.

mar77i 7y ago

Welcome to 21st century arguments. Humans used to be able to disagree and still get along, but that was boring for drama-preventing reasons. More on topic, though, I wonder: What exaclty is the relationship between Alpine Linux and ungleich.ch?

telmich 7y ago
There are no official ties between Alpine Linux and ungleich.ch. We at ungleich are simple people liking simple systems. And we think it is important to support systems that are not mainstream. That's why we endorse Alpine Linux.

mjw1007 7y ago

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying, but I think you have "Motte" and "Bailey" backwards.

kevin_b_er 7y ago
You are right! Fortunately the sense can be easily obtained.