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So how long will it take until Asian Phone companies using Android get together to develop an alternative Android ecosystem? They could set it up in a neutral n

by dx034 7y ago

So how long will it take until Asian Phone companies using Android get together to develop an alternative Android ecosystem? They could set it up in a neutral nation with profits going to all companies. So far, these always failed because it was only one company involved (e.g. Amazons app store) but will all major manufacturers involved, it would be much more profitable for developers to be on that app store than on Google's (they could be compatible at the start anyway). In the end, the one loser from this action is more likely Google than Huawei. And I believe they know that very well but had no alternative but to act this way.

enitihas 7y ago
I am not sure why Asian Phone companies would do anything. As far as we see, only Chinese companies might want to. Asia is big and includes a lot more countries than China. Other asian countries are in the same bucket as Europe in moving to custom ecosystem.
- product50 7y ago
  Exactly. Original poster is trying to go into hyperbolics. Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath? Which user would like to get a phone without Google's apps on it? This is all looks good on paper as a so called strategy but in real implementation, almost impossible to implement. Consumers will just shift to another Google supported phone.
  - vetinari 7y ago
    > Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath? As an insurance, so they do not have to be afraid of Google's wrath.
    - duxup 7y ago
      Samsung with their own apps has been hedging their bets that way.... but going all out and forking the OS and building a device (even for test) could get them kicked from the Open Handset Alliance.
      - dx034 7y ago
        It shows how open that alliance is if a test device can get you kicked out of it. Maybe that's exactly the reason why manufacturers would rather team up in an alliance that is truly that and not dominated by a single large player
- ddalex 7y ago
  It said Asian because Samsung is in the same boat, albeit for different reasons (think platform lockout instead of govt pressure). That's why the keep developing Tizen. I assume that Japanese manufacturers are under a similar threat.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    Perhaps the potential profit stream of operating an appstore is also an appealing reason?
  - iamnothere 7y ago
    It's also likely a pressure tactic of sorts. Samsung shows that it could leave the reservation if it wants to, so Google doesn't push too hard when it comes to standardization, modifications to the base system, and preloaded apps. (For quality and monetization reasons, Google would likely prefer that all versions of Android were shipped as close to stock as possible.)
mongol 7y ago
I don't think it is in Samsung's or Sony's interest.
- pmlnr 7y ago
  so? China alone is a bigger market for smartphones, than EU + US together.
  - adventured 7y ago
    The US is by far the most lucrative smartphone market. It's not even close. Most of the smartphone buyers in China are purchasing phones that the manufacturer makes effectively zero net profit on. When it comes to phones, Apple earns more in profit than every other competitor globally combined. Apple gets half its enormous profit just from the US market. Apple can afford to lose the entire Chinese market thanks to that fact (then they'd only generate a mere $45b in profit and would still be the world's most profitable company). For another example, while Google is printing massive profit via mobile search thanks to its Android position in the US and Europe, Baidu is losing money in China and has never been able to expand globally (and never will, they're largely hostage to the Chinese market). If you're Apple or Google and you can only choose one market to participate in, you choose the US. It's where all the margin is, because US consumers provide the largest-wealthiest market by far. Samsung also still actually sells phones in the US, whereas their market share has been entirely wiped out in China due to nationalism and poor Chinese consumers being unable to afford most of Samsung's phones.
- dx034 7y ago
  Why not? They also built on Android to have one common ecosystem with all the benefits of scale. If Huawei now builds their own App Store, Samsung risks losing customers in countries where Huawei already dominates. Building one together would at least keep the status quo.
  - product50 7y ago
    Please use some sense. You are suggesting Samsung and Huawei - two of the fiercest competitors to collaborate on an OS? While the Occam's razor argument is that Samsung will just goto Android with Google's apps and bleed Huawei away.
rqs 7y ago
I could go one step further: Build another open source OS that can run Android app but not Android. Many Chinese companies already tried it (non-open source though) before but been persuaded not to, I guess they're feeling a little bit different now. The good part is, by building that OS, the domestic tech communities could receive a huge boost. So far for Huawei, Google's blockage is partly useless. As long as Huawei can sell device globally, they can just build their devices in such way that allowing their users to load custom ROM into it without effect warranty, then their users can just use LineageOS (Huawei's Android UI is a crap anyway) or a Linux distro etc. (Maybe the first hackable phone from a major manufacturer) BTW: In China, not a single one domestic phone manufacturer I know of ships Google service with their phone. So Google service is largely an non-existence.
- disiplus 7y ago
  as somebody that bought an huawei device from a carrier, if carriers wont sell your devices you are just like dead. and i cannot imagine carriers selling devices that need to sideload google play and stuff.
  - PeterStuer 7y ago
    The dominance of bundled sales by carriers is not a universal practice around the world. In Europe this was even forbidden for long time as it gave the Telco's too much power over the nascent mobile industry.
    - disiplus 7y ago
      its not forbidden, i thing it's the way most of the cell phones are sold in europe. https://shop.a1.net/handys-telefonie/alle-handys/?ProcessType=EA&tarif=EAA1S19_5&manufacturer=Huawei https://shop.a1.net/handys-telefonie/alle-handys/?ProcessTyp...
      - PeterStuer 7y ago
        It is not anymore, it used to be years back. This is why I said 'was'.
throw20102010 7y ago
Most Chinese versions of Android are completely de-Googled[1]- no Play store, no Maps, no GMail, etc. They have their own app store, web browser, and everything else. They are still based on Android, but it's not a stretch to think that most Chinese phone manufacturers could fork the open source project tomorrow. As soon as Google goes too far against the Chinese government, the manufacturers will receive a notice that Android is no longer welcome as an operating system and they will flip the switch. Most Chinese citizens wouldn't care or even notice. Other Asian companies are working on alternative OSes in case Google ever "pulls a Google" and kills off Android. Samsung has Tizen, which sucks, but could be better with some work. [1] I bought a Xiaomi phone with a Chinese ROM and it took three days to get unlock permissions from Xiaomi to put the Global ROM on it that had Google apps. In that time I didn't feel like I was missing anything huge- except for being able to get directions since the maps app didn't have US street maps.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  It's also important that WeChat is essentially the "operating system" for a large number of people in China.
- dx034 7y ago
  In the end, the only superior system Google offers outside of China is Search (and to some degree Mail). Search can be integrated without the need of an app and GMail can be accessed by any mail client. All the other money making products (Maps, Play Store, Pay) could probably be replaced without users complaining much.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    Bing's not banned in China, and it's not _that_ bad.
  - sorenjan 7y ago
    It's not just about Google's own apps, it's about installing and getting updates to other apps from the play store. Additionally, most apps now use the Google play services that Google has moved a lot of Android functionality into to be able to update it faster.
muzani 7y ago
I'd actually love to jump on a quality phone that's not using the Google ecosystem. Except that I'm not so sure the Huawei ecosystem is less evil.
- dx034 7y ago
  That's why Huawei would probably benefit from using an independent ecosystem, together with Samsung, Sony, etc. They could set it up in Singapore or Hong Kong to avoid political issues and share the profits. At the same time you get US-critics to buy those phones instead of Google or Apple controlled ones. Not sure though how inclined the other manufacturers are to work with each other.
  - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
    Korea and Japan are American vassals on the one hand, and wary of China's growing power on the other. So I guess that they won't want to "get in bed" with China on this.
- yourfate 7y ago
  There is one small american company that makes those. They have some fruit as their logo...
downtide 7y ago
I tried the Samsung app store briefly on my Android. I didn't last long with it, it was not that great, and reluctantly intstalled Google Play. It's yet another company trying to usher me into signing up, and trading my data privacy. The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?
- lightedman 7y ago
  "The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?" To reskin the contacts list. Anything dealing with the contacts list needs permission to do so, even reskinning appearance.
nbevans 7y ago
They already have. This only affects the "International Firmware" editions of Huawei phones/tablets. The Chinese editions of these devices are unaffected because those already use AOSP.
product50 7y ago
Don't club Huawei with Asia. Google, outside China, is a major force to reckon from a consumer standpoint - without Gmail, Play App, YouTube, Android Auto etc., who do you think people will buy these phones. It is easier for Samsung and LG to just sell Android branded phones given it has Google products vs. for Huawei to sell its proprietary OS branded phone without Google.
krm01 7y ago
I hadn’t thought about it that way but makes total sense. A new OS that all factories would install on their - now Android - phones, would cause a big blow to Google. We’e already seen ecosystems like Wechat and their impact. That move seems imminent
mhandley 7y ago
Why would Samsung want to team up with Huawei on this? Huawei is a major competitor to Samsung; having Google services available on Samsumg phones and not on Huawei ones is a major competitive win for Samsumg. They must be laughing all the way to the bank right now.
- rchaud 7y ago
  A de-Googled Huawei might actually save Samsung's folding phone line. The Galaxy Fold was a PR disaster, whereas Huawei's Mate X had none of those issues in bloggers' hands.
duxup 7y ago
Why would they want to as it is just Huawei?

by dx034 7y ago

enitihas 7y ago

I am not sure why Asian Phone companies would do anything. As far as we see, only Chinese companies might want to. Asia is big and includes a lot more countries than China. Other asian countries are in the same bucket as Europe in moving to custom ecosystem.

product50 7y ago
Exactly. Original poster is trying to go into hyperbolics. Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath? Which user would like to get a phone without Google's apps on it? This is all looks good on paper as a so called strategy but in real implementation, almost impossible to implement. Consumers will just shift to another Google supported phone.
- vetinari 7y ago
  > Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath? As an insurance, so they do not have to be afraid of Google's wrath.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Samsung with their own apps has been hedging their bets that way.... but going all out and forking the OS and building a device (even for test) could get them kicked from the Open Handset Alliance.
    - dx034 7y ago
      It shows how open that alliance is if a test device can get you kicked out of it. Maybe that's exactly the reason why manufacturers would rather team up in an alliance that is truly that and not dominated by a single large player
ddalex 7y ago
It said Asian because Samsung is in the same boat, albeit for different reasons (think platform lockout instead of govt pressure). That's why the keep developing Tizen. I assume that Japanese manufacturers are under a similar threat.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Perhaps the potential profit stream of operating an appstore is also an appealing reason?
- iamnothere 7y ago
  It's also likely a pressure tactic of sorts. Samsung shows that it could leave the reservation if it wants to, so Google doesn't push too hard when it comes to standardization, modifications to the base system, and preloaded apps. (For quality and monetization reasons, Google would likely prefer that all versions of Android were shipped as close to stock as possible.)

mongol 7y ago

I don't think it is in Samsung's or Sony's interest.

pmlnr 7y ago
so? China alone is a bigger market for smartphones, than EU + US together.
- adventured 7y ago
  The US is by far the most lucrative smartphone market. It's not even close. Most of the smartphone buyers in China are purchasing phones that the manufacturer makes effectively zero net profit on. When it comes to phones, Apple earns more in profit than every other competitor globally combined. Apple gets half its enormous profit just from the US market. Apple can afford to lose the entire Chinese market thanks to that fact (then they'd only generate a mere $45b in profit and would still be the world's most profitable company). For another example, while Google is printing massive profit via mobile search thanks to its Android position in the US and Europe, Baidu is losing money in China and has never been able to expand globally (and never will, they're largely hostage to the Chinese market). If you're Apple or Google and you can only choose one market to participate in, you choose the US. It's where all the margin is, because US consumers provide the largest-wealthiest market by far. Samsung also still actually sells phones in the US, whereas their market share has been entirely wiped out in China due to nationalism and poor Chinese consumers being unable to afford most of Samsung's phones.
dx034 7y ago
Why not? They also built on Android to have one common ecosystem with all the benefits of scale. If Huawei now builds their own App Store, Samsung risks losing customers in countries where Huawei already dominates. Building one together would at least keep the status quo.
- product50 7y ago
  Please use some sense. You are suggesting Samsung and Huawei - two of the fiercest competitors to collaborate on an OS? While the Occam's razor argument is that Samsung will just goto Android with Google's apps and bleed Huawei away.

rqs 7y ago

I could go one step further: Build another open source OS that can run Android app but not Android. Many Chinese companies already tried it (non-open source though) before but been persuaded not to, I guess they're feeling a little bit different now. The good part is, by building that OS, the domestic tech communities could receive a huge boost. So far for Huawei, Google's blockage is partly useless. As long as Huawei can sell device globally, they can just build their devices in such way that allowing their users to load custom ROM into it without effect warranty, then their users can just use LineageOS (Huawei's Android UI is a crap anyway) or a Linux distro etc. (Maybe the first hackable phone from a major manufacturer) BTW: In China, not a single one domestic phone manufacturer I know of ships Google service with their phone. So Google service is largely an non-existence.

disiplus 7y ago
as somebody that bought an huawei device from a carrier, if carriers wont sell your devices you are just like dead. and i cannot imagine carriers selling devices that need to sideload google play and stuff.
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  The dominance of bundled sales by carriers is not a universal practice around the world. In Europe this was even forbidden for long time as it gave the Telco's too much power over the nascent mobile industry.
  - disiplus 7y ago
    its not forbidden, i thing it's the way most of the cell phones are sold in europe. https://shop.a1.net/handys-telefonie/alle-handys/?ProcessType=EA&tarif=EAA1S19_5&manufacturer=Huawei https://shop.a1.net/handys-telefonie/alle-handys/?ProcessTyp...
    - PeterStuer 7y ago
      It is not anymore, it used to be years back. This is why I said 'was'.

throw20102010 7y ago

Most Chinese versions of Android are completely de-Googled[1]- no Play store, no Maps, no GMail, etc. They have their own app store, web browser, and everything else. They are still based on Android, but it's not a stretch to think that most Chinese phone manufacturers could fork the open source project tomorrow. As soon as Google goes too far against the Chinese government, the manufacturers will receive a notice that Android is no longer welcome as an operating system and they will flip the switch. Most Chinese citizens wouldn't care or even notice. Other Asian companies are working on alternative OSes in case Google ever "pulls a Google" and kills off Android. Samsung has Tizen, which sucks, but could be better with some work. [1] I bought a Xiaomi phone with a Chinese ROM and it took three days to get unlock permissions from Xiaomi to put the Global ROM on it that had Google apps. In that time I didn't feel like I was missing anything huge- except for being able to get directions since the maps app didn't have US street maps.

saagarjha 7y ago
It's also important that WeChat is essentially the "operating system" for a large number of people in China.
dx034 7y ago
In the end, the only superior system Google offers outside of China is Search (and to some degree Mail). Search can be integrated without the need of an app and GMail can be accessed by any mail client. All the other money making products (Maps, Play Store, Pay) could probably be replaced without users complaining much.
- logicchains 7y ago
  Bing's not banned in China, and it's not _that_ bad.
- sorenjan 7y ago
  It's not just about Google's own apps, it's about installing and getting updates to other apps from the play store. Additionally, most apps now use the Google play services that Google has moved a lot of Android functionality into to be able to update it faster.

muzani 7y ago

I'd actually love to jump on a quality phone that's not using the Google ecosystem. Except that I'm not so sure the Huawei ecosystem is less evil.

dx034 7y ago
That's why Huawei would probably benefit from using an independent ecosystem, together with Samsung, Sony, etc. They could set it up in Singapore or Hong Kong to avoid political issues and share the profits. At the same time you get US-critics to buy those phones instead of Google or Apple controlled ones. Not sure though how inclined the other manufacturers are to work with each other.
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  Korea and Japan are American vassals on the one hand, and wary of China's growing power on the other. So I guess that they won't want to "get in bed" with China on this.
yourfate 7y ago
There is one small american company that makes those. They have some fruit as their logo...

downtide 7y ago

I tried the Samsung app store briefly on my Android. I didn't last long with it, it was not that great, and reluctantly intstalled Google Play. It's yet another company trying to usher me into signing up, and trading my data privacy. The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?

lightedman 7y ago
"The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?" To reskin the contacts list. Anything dealing with the contacts list needs permission to do so, even reskinning appearance.

nbevans 7y ago

They already have. This only affects the "International Firmware" editions of Huawei phones/tablets. The Chinese editions of these devices are unaffected because those already use AOSP.

product50 7y ago

Don't club Huawei with Asia. Google, outside China, is a major force to reckon from a consumer standpoint - without Gmail, Play App, YouTube, Android Auto etc., who do you think people will buy these phones. It is easier for Samsung and LG to just sell Android branded phones given it has Google products vs. for Huawei to sell its proprietary OS branded phone without Google.

krm01 7y ago

I hadn’t thought about it that way but makes total sense. A new OS that all factories would install on their - now Android - phones, would cause a big blow to Google. We’e already seen ecosystems like Wechat and their impact. That move seems imminent

mhandley 7y ago

Why would Samsung want to team up with Huawei on this? Huawei is a major competitor to Samsung; having Google services available on Samsumg phones and not on Huawei ones is a major competitive win for Samsumg. They must be laughing all the way to the bank right now.

rchaud 7y ago
A de-Googled Huawei might actually save Samsung's folding phone line. The Galaxy Fold was a PR disaster, whereas Huawei's Mate X had none of those issues in bloggers' hands.

duxup 7y ago

Why would they want to as it is just Huawei?