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I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they ar

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappearing if they aren't already gone.

Kinnard 7y ago
How are you able to assess what they are capable of?
- neonate 7y ago
  That is part of the teaching process, no?
  - Kinnard 7y ago
    I'm asking how he assesses their capacity, not asserting that he is not able to. Not a statement hiding in a question :|
- madengr 7y ago
  He teaches them. In my experience, only a few people in an undergrad EE EM class understand divergence and curl. Those that don’t probably won’t do well in certain EE disciplines.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    When I was a young kid I came across a mini golf game for the computer (can't remember which platform, could have been Atari 130XE, IBM PC XT, or Apple iigs) that represented sloped surfaces as vector fields. So I knew if there were arrows pointing left, my golf ball going right would slow down and roll back to the left. That kind of early exposure made it much easier to understand vector fields later on.
crazygringo 7y ago
Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to be so extreme. I personally really wonder -- is this something "genetic", like an athletic ability? Is it something learned, but somehow acquired at a young age? Is it a mindset, that we just haven't figured out how to communicate? Or a question of motivation, if it seems "hard" to think that way?
- p1necone 7y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if abstract thought/problem solving and critical thinking need to be taught quite young to stick. Sort of similar to how much easier it is for young children to learn new languages compared to adults.
  - kitotik 7y ago
    Just having the social, familial, and cultural freedom and encouragement to practice abstract thought would be an important first step, otherwise the teaching isn’t very effective.
  - ambicapter 7y ago
    Wasn't there a HN post recently arguing about the lack of difference between adults and children learning languages?
    - wincy 7y ago
      I believe so, a large crux of the argument was that true immersion learning becomes much more difficult if not impossible as an adult because while children will just speak to other children normally, an adult will “tone it down” and talk to someone struggling with a new language, ultimately putting the adult at a disadvantage, since the adult might not hear as much natural language in the new tongue.
maxxxxx 7y ago
I would agree. In addition to abstract thinking being a software dev also means to be willing to put up with a lot of boring and tedious tasks most people would find extremely boring. Also, constantly learning new stuff is not everyone.
- richdev 7y ago
  Yes, staying in software development, even as a trainer requires a daily and constant investment of time to advance. This is not something most people can keep up for decades on end. At 61 years old, I still maintain "a daily student schedule" to learn SOMETHING new every day with programming. I must study daily to keep advancing, or at least maintain "even position" with my peers, and not be passed by because things advance so fast in software and biotechnology.

Kinnard 7y ago

How are you able to assess what they are capable of?

neonate 7y ago
That is part of the teaching process, no?
- Kinnard 7y ago
  I'm asking how he assesses their capacity, not asserting that he is not able to. Not a statement hiding in a question :|
madengr 7y ago
He teaches them. In my experience, only a few people in an undergrad EE EM class understand divergence and curl. Those that don’t probably won’t do well in certain EE disciplines.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  When I was a young kid I came across a mini golf game for the computer (can't remember which platform, could have been Atari 130XE, IBM PC XT, or Apple iigs) that represented sloped surfaces as vector fields. So I knew if there were arrows pointing left, my golf ball going right would slow down and roll back to the left. That kind of early exposure made it much easier to understand vector fields later on.

crazygringo 7y ago

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to be so extreme. I personally really wonder -- is this something "genetic", like an athletic ability? Is it something learned, but somehow acquired at a young age? Is it a mindset, that we just haven't figured out how to communicate? Or a question of motivation, if it seems "hard" to think that way?

p1necone 7y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if abstract thought/problem solving and critical thinking need to be taught quite young to stick. Sort of similar to how much easier it is for young children to learn new languages compared to adults.
- kitotik 7y ago
  Just having the social, familial, and cultural freedom and encouragement to practice abstract thought would be an important first step, otherwise the teaching isn’t very effective.
- ambicapter 7y ago
  Wasn't there a HN post recently arguing about the lack of difference between adults and children learning languages?
  - wincy 7y ago
    I believe so, a large crux of the argument was that true immersion learning becomes much more difficult if not impossible as an adult because while children will just speak to other children normally, an adult will “tone it down” and talk to someone struggling with a new language, ultimately putting the adult at a disadvantage, since the adult might not hear as much natural language in the new tongue.

maxxxxx 7y ago

I would agree. In addition to abstract thinking being a software dev also means to be willing to put up with a lot of boring and tedious tasks most people would find extremely boring. Also, constantly learning new stuff is not everyone.

richdev 7y ago
Yes, staying in software development, even as a trainer requires a daily and constant investment of time to advance. This is not something most people can keep up for decades on end. At 61 years old, I still maintain "a daily student schedule" to learn SOMETHING new every day with programming. I must study daily to keep advancing, or at least maintain "even position" with my peers, and not be passed by because things advance so fast in software and biotechnology.