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Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. They go above and beyond what the law requires them

Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. They go above and beyond what the law requires them to do. >Disclosure: My first entrepreneurial effort was annihilated in concert by UPS, PayPal, and eBay.

tptacek 16y ago
People are allowed to disagree with you about PayPal. This would be a very boring site if everyone automatically agreed with everyone else. I'm curious now. What was your first entrepeneurial effort, and how did UPS, PayPal, and eBay kill it? I have zero opinions about PayPal.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  I custom built and shipped workstations as well as a variety of custom cabling and network equipment. I had shipping insurance through UPS for every order, a waste of money it turned out. They wrecked 6 shipments in a row, and refused to pay up on the insurance. Couldn't get a lawyer to take the case (small town at the time). PayPal froze our accounts because people complained about the broken equipment that was shipped, and due to the frozen accounts we couldn't refund anyone which led to... eBay freezing our account because we couldn't refund anyone. None of the three companies would work with us. I haven't done business with any of them since and I refuse to do so. The company was supporting 4 people with full-time incomes before it went kerplooey. I got robbed and became homeless not too long after all that.
  - ergo98 16y ago
    Interestingly if you were paid by credit card directly, you wouldn't have seen a penny for months. During which time your buyer would have challenged the charges, you wouldn't have gotten paid...same story. It sounds like you completely misunderstood PayPal.
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      They froze the account that had all of our money. Our existing savings would've still been in action, allowing us to sue for the insurance which would then allow us to issue refunds. You understanding of the scenario is flawed, and your bias is bleeding through. Stop looking for excuses to blame someone in something you know nothing about.
      - ergo98 16y ago
        Comment deleted as you simply are irrational, and in my opinion financially ignorant. I have no vested interest in the PayPal issue, yet it remarkably seems that every bad story I've heard is the same tale of incredible financial irresponsibility and borderline businesses.
        alnayyir 16y ago
        You have personal issues and biases you need to air out somewhere outside of HN. Your rancor is unnecessary.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    To be fair it sounds like PayPal and eBay acted appropriately. You hadn't supplied goods or refunded payments it seems. Now the reason appears to be that UPS screwed you over. But, I don't see how that is a problem with PayPal and/or eBay. Are they supposed to screw their customers over to avoid upsetting you because you gave them what [from their point of view] amounts to a sob story about a third party. I really feel for you, our company is so small that a legal issue could sink us if our legal liabilities insurance didn't cover things. Is there something missing here, you describe an open and shut case but you couldn't pay a lawyer to take it?
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      Where would the money have come from? It was all in Paypal because we used it for equipment purchases as well. That's where the "playing ball with us" part comes in. We could've refunded the money had Paypal unfrozen our account. We couldn't refund because Paypal wouldn't unfreeze our account. They never distributed refunds to the complainants. They kept all of it. The Kafka-esque absurdity of it was overwhelming. All our problems were rooted in Paypal's unwillingness to unfreeze our account and make the refunds. Had that happened, Paypal and eBay would've had no outstanding complaints, and we could've used the rest to get a lawyer without trying to appeal on a percentage basis. Which didn't work, which was also bizarre to us since it was, as you said, an open and shut insurance claims case. It's been years since all that happened, and I've since paid off all my outstanding debts. I prefer not to dwell on it, as I've gone on to put my software career together nicely.
ergo98 16y ago
Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. This sort of trollish nonsense has no place on HN. I built a banking AML system (not for PayPal, which is a company that I have zero affiliation or interest in). I know the incredible burden that the financial industry lives under, and to say that PayPal -- which is absolutely the wild-west of payment systems (it exists for a reason, often serving those organizations who in many cases would have had trouble getting a merchant account) -- goes "above and beyond" is patently ridiculous. No seriously, file that patent, because you nailed it. Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Consider striking the first two sentences and the last sentence from this comment.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- alnayyir 16y ago
  >Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop. Quite an understatement. You seem unconvinced of the overwhelming number of people who have had issues with Paypal, and the relentless pain they had to endure just to get their money back, buyers and sellers both. I don't deny the existence of the regulations they have to abide, but Paypal isn't a bank and doesn't operate like one either. They're given a great deal of freedom in their contract to seize accounts at will. I would like to see the relevant law that Paypal was abiding by to seize Wikileak's account. There is no law, they did it of their own accord. I won't make any assertions about why but I'd say there are two or three guesses, of which at least one is close to the mark.

tptacek 16y ago

People are allowed to disagree with you about PayPal. This would be a very boring site if everyone automatically agreed with everyone else. I'm curious now. What was your first entrepeneurial effort, and how did UPS, PayPal, and eBay kill it? I have zero opinions about PayPal.

alnayyir 16y ago
I custom built and shipped workstations as well as a variety of custom cabling and network equipment. I had shipping insurance through UPS for every order, a waste of money it turned out. They wrecked 6 shipments in a row, and refused to pay up on the insurance. Couldn't get a lawyer to take the case (small town at the time). PayPal froze our accounts because people complained about the broken equipment that was shipped, and due to the frozen accounts we couldn't refund anyone which led to... eBay freezing our account because we couldn't refund anyone. None of the three companies would work with us. I haven't done business with any of them since and I refuse to do so. The company was supporting 4 people with full-time incomes before it went kerplooey. I got robbed and became homeless not too long after all that.
- ergo98 16y ago
  Interestingly if you were paid by credit card directly, you wouldn't have seen a penny for months. During which time your buyer would have challenged the charges, you wouldn't have gotten paid...same story. It sounds like you completely misunderstood PayPal.
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    They froze the account that had all of our money. Our existing savings would've still been in action, allowing us to sue for the insurance which would then allow us to issue refunds. You understanding of the scenario is flawed, and your bias is bleeding through. Stop looking for excuses to blame someone in something you know nothing about.
    - ergo98 16y ago
      Comment deleted as you simply are irrational, and in my opinion financially ignorant. I have no vested interest in the PayPal issue, yet it remarkably seems that every bad story I've heard is the same tale of incredible financial irresponsibility and borderline businesses.
      - alnayyir 16y ago
        You have personal issues and biases you need to air out somewhere outside of HN. Your rancor is unnecessary.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  To be fair it sounds like PayPal and eBay acted appropriately. You hadn't supplied goods or refunded payments it seems. Now the reason appears to be that UPS screwed you over. But, I don't see how that is a problem with PayPal and/or eBay. Are they supposed to screw their customers over to avoid upsetting you because you gave them what [from their point of view] amounts to a sob story about a third party. I really feel for you, our company is so small that a legal issue could sink us if our legal liabilities insurance didn't cover things. Is there something missing here, you describe an open and shut case but you couldn't pay a lawyer to take it?
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    Where would the money have come from? It was all in Paypal because we used it for equipment purchases as well. That's where the "playing ball with us" part comes in. We could've refunded the money had Paypal unfrozen our account. We couldn't refund because Paypal wouldn't unfreeze our account. They never distributed refunds to the complainants. They kept all of it. The Kafka-esque absurdity of it was overwhelming. All our problems were rooted in Paypal's unwillingness to unfreeze our account and make the refunds. Had that happened, Paypal and eBay would've had no outstanding complaints, and we could've used the rest to get a lawyer without trying to appeal on a percentage basis. Which didn't work, which was also bizarre to us since it was, as you said, an open and shut insurance claims case. It's been years since all that happened, and I've since paid off all my outstanding debts. I prefer not to dwell on it, as I've gone on to put my software career together nicely.

ergo98 16y ago

Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. This sort of trollish nonsense has no place on HN. I built a banking AML system (not for PayPal, which is a company that I have zero affiliation or interest in). I know the incredible burden that the financial industry lives under, and to say that PayPal -- which is absolutely the wild-west of payment systems (it exists for a reason, often serving those organizations who in many cases would have had trouble getting a merchant account) -- goes "above and beyond" is patently ridiculous. No seriously, file that patent, because you nailed it. Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop.

tptacek 16y ago
Consider striking the first two sentences and the last sentence from this comment.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
alnayyir 16y ago
>Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop. Quite an understatement. You seem unconvinced of the overwhelming number of people who have had issues with Paypal, and the relentless pain they had to endure just to get their money back, buyers and sellers both. I don't deny the existence of the regulations they have to abide, but Paypal isn't a bank and doesn't operate like one either. They're given a great deal of freedom in their contract to seize accounts at will. I would like to see the relevant law that Paypal was abiding by to seize Wikileak's account. There is no law, they did it of their own accord. I won't make any assertions about why but I'd say there are two or three guesses, of which at least one is close to the mark.