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There's a complete lack of detail in this story, and the wikileaks bit almost seems like an aside looking to cash in on some of the wikileaks sympathy. It's hu

by ergo98 16y ago

There's a complete lack of detail in this story, and the wikileaks bit almost seems like an aside looking to cash in on some of the wikileaks sympathy. It's humorous how bitchy people are about PayPal -- do this sort of stuff with your bank and see how that turns out. Long before wikileaks, and before 9/11, banking and financial regulations have been very tight. Every single payment system on the planet has to abide by the laws of the countries that they are operating in. Anti-money laundering regulations, in particular, apply to every organization that does money transfers of any sort. Further still, many of the recipients of PayPal cash got paid via credit card. For those who don't know this, when you pay someone with a credit card they normally don't get a penny for 60 days or so. PayPal, in letting you withdraw cash against credit card payments, is essentially fronting you a loan with the CC receipts as the collateral, though obviously they have risk if you have significant fraud or chargebacks. It's that element that so many fail to understand.

alnayyir 16y ago
Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. They go above and beyond what the law requires them to do. >Disclosure: My first entrepreneurial effort was annihilated in concert by UPS, PayPal, and eBay.
- tptacek 16y ago
  People are allowed to disagree with you about PayPal. This would be a very boring site if everyone automatically agreed with everyone else. I'm curious now. What was your first entrepeneurial effort, and how did UPS, PayPal, and eBay kill it? I have zero opinions about PayPal.
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    I custom built and shipped workstations as well as a variety of custom cabling and network equipment. I had shipping insurance through UPS for every order, a waste of money it turned out. They wrecked 6 shipments in a row, and refused to pay up on the insurance. Couldn't get a lawyer to take the case (small town at the time). PayPal froze our accounts because people complained about the broken equipment that was shipped, and due to the frozen accounts we couldn't refund anyone which led to... eBay freezing our account because we couldn't refund anyone. None of the three companies would work with us. I haven't done business with any of them since and I refuse to do so. The company was supporting 4 people with full-time incomes before it went kerplooey. I got robbed and became homeless not too long after all that.
    - ergo98 16y ago
      Interestingly if you were paid by credit card directly, you wouldn't have seen a penny for months. During which time your buyer would have challenged the charges, you wouldn't have gotten paid...same story. It sounds like you completely misunderstood PayPal.
      - alnayyir 16y ago
        They froze the account that had all of our money. Our existing savings would've still been in action, allowing us to sue for the insurance which would then allow us to issue refunds. You understanding of the scenario is flawed, and your bias is bleeding through. Stop looking for excuses to blame someone in something you know nothing about.
        ergo98 16y ago
        Comment deleted as you simply are irrational, and in my opinion financially ignorant. I have no vested interest in the PayPal issue, yet it remarkably seems that every bad story I've heard is the same tale of incredible financial irresponsibility and borderline businesses.
        alnayyir 16y ago
        You have personal issues and biases you need to air out somewhere outside of HN. Your rancor is unnecessary.
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      To be fair it sounds like PayPal and eBay acted appropriately. You hadn't supplied goods or refunded payments it seems. Now the reason appears to be that UPS screwed you over. But, I don't see how that is a problem with PayPal and/or eBay. Are they supposed to screw their customers over to avoid upsetting you because you gave them what [from their point of view] amounts to a sob story about a third party. I really feel for you, our company is so small that a legal issue could sink us if our legal liabilities insurance didn't cover things. Is there something missing here, you describe an open and shut case but you couldn't pay a lawyer to take it?
- ergo98 16y ago
  Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. This sort of trollish nonsense has no place on HN. I built a banking AML system (not for PayPal, which is a company that I have zero affiliation or interest in). I know the incredible burden that the financial industry lives under, and to say that PayPal -- which is absolutely the wild-west of payment systems (it exists for a reason, often serving those organizations who in many cases would have had trouble getting a merchant account) -- goes "above and beyond" is patently ridiculous. No seriously, file that patent, because you nailed it. Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Consider striking the first two sentences and the last sentence from this comment.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    >Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop. Quite an understatement. You seem unconvinced of the overwhelming number of people who have had issues with Paypal, and the relentless pain they had to endure just to get their money back, buyers and sellers both. I don't deny the existence of the regulations they have to abide, but Paypal isn't a bank and doesn't operate like one either. They're given a great deal of freedom in their contract to seize accounts at will. I would like to see the relevant law that Paypal was abiding by to seize Wikileak's account. There is no law, they did it of their own accord. I won't make any assertions about why but I'd say there are two or three guesses, of which at least one is close to the mark.
chc 16y ago
I don't believe there's any banking regulations that require you to have virtually nonexistent customer service. If you're required to freeze someone's account, that's not your fault. If you refuse to even tell him what's going on and what he might be able to do to sort it out, that's your fault. Similarly, your business-critical application might go down due to problems with your host. That doesn't mean you can just kick your feet back and laugh, "Oh, those hosting companies! Sure good I don't have any responsibility to anyone in this situation!" You need to apologize to customers, possibly issue refunds and harden your infrastructure so that you don't get extended downtime in the future. If you don't do all this, big surprise when your customers hate you.

by ergo98 16y ago

alnayyir 16y ago

Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. They go above and beyond what the law requires them to do. >Disclosure: My first entrepreneurial effort was annihilated in concert by UPS, PayPal, and eBay.

tptacek 16y ago
People are allowed to disagree with you about PayPal. This would be a very boring site if everyone automatically agreed with everyone else. I'm curious now. What was your first entrepeneurial effort, and how did UPS, PayPal, and eBay kill it? I have zero opinions about PayPal.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  I custom built and shipped workstations as well as a variety of custom cabling and network equipment. I had shipping insurance through UPS for every order, a waste of money it turned out. They wrecked 6 shipments in a row, and refused to pay up on the insurance. Couldn't get a lawyer to take the case (small town at the time). PayPal froze our accounts because people complained about the broken equipment that was shipped, and due to the frozen accounts we couldn't refund anyone which led to... eBay freezing our account because we couldn't refund anyone. None of the three companies would work with us. I haven't done business with any of them since and I refuse to do so. The company was supporting 4 people with full-time incomes before it went kerplooey. I got robbed and became homeless not too long after all that.
  - ergo98 16y ago
    Interestingly if you were paid by credit card directly, you wouldn't have seen a penny for months. During which time your buyer would have challenged the charges, you wouldn't have gotten paid...same story. It sounds like you completely misunderstood PayPal.
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      They froze the account that had all of our money. Our existing savings would've still been in action, allowing us to sue for the insurance which would then allow us to issue refunds. You understanding of the scenario is flawed, and your bias is bleeding through. Stop looking for excuses to blame someone in something you know nothing about.
      - ergo98 16y ago
        Comment deleted as you simply are irrational, and in my opinion financially ignorant. I have no vested interest in the PayPal issue, yet it remarkably seems that every bad story I've heard is the same tale of incredible financial irresponsibility and borderline businesses.
        alnayyir 16y ago
        You have personal issues and biases you need to air out somewhere outside of HN. Your rancor is unnecessary.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    To be fair it sounds like PayPal and eBay acted appropriately. You hadn't supplied goods or refunded payments it seems. Now the reason appears to be that UPS screwed you over. But, I don't see how that is a problem with PayPal and/or eBay. Are they supposed to screw their customers over to avoid upsetting you because you gave them what [from their point of view] amounts to a sob story about a third party. I really feel for you, our company is so small that a legal issue could sink us if our legal liabilities insurance didn't cover things. Is there something missing here, you describe an open and shut case but you couldn't pay a lawyer to take it?
ergo98 16y ago
Stop pretending there isn't something horribly wrong with the company just because it suits your rhetoric. This sort of trollish nonsense has no place on HN. I built a banking AML system (not for PayPal, which is a company that I have zero affiliation or interest in). I know the incredible burden that the financial industry lives under, and to say that PayPal -- which is absolutely the wild-west of payment systems (it exists for a reason, often serving those organizations who in many cases would have had trouble getting a merchant account) -- goes "above and beyond" is patently ridiculous. No seriously, file that patent, because you nailed it. Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Consider striking the first two sentences and the last sentence from this comment.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- alnayyir 16y ago
  >Some subsection of users have trouble with a large organization. Big whoop. Quite an understatement. You seem unconvinced of the overwhelming number of people who have had issues with Paypal, and the relentless pain they had to endure just to get their money back, buyers and sellers both. I don't deny the existence of the regulations they have to abide, but Paypal isn't a bank and doesn't operate like one either. They're given a great deal of freedom in their contract to seize accounts at will. I would like to see the relevant law that Paypal was abiding by to seize Wikileak's account. There is no law, they did it of their own accord. I won't make any assertions about why but I'd say there are two or three guesses, of which at least one is close to the mark.

chc 16y ago

I don't believe there's any banking regulations that require you to have virtually nonexistent customer service. If you're required to freeze someone's account, that's not your fault. If you refuse to even tell him what's going on and what he might be able to do to sort it out, that's your fault. Similarly, your business-critical application might go down due to problems with your host. That doesn't mean you can just kick your feet back and laugh, "Oh, those hosting companies! Sure good I don't have any responsibility to anyone in this situation!" You need to apologize to customers, possibly issue refunds and harden your infrastructure so that you don't get extended downtime in the future. If you don't do all this, big surprise when your customers hate you.