4 ms·

Apple's rumored to profit several hundred dollars per iPhone sold, between the $1.70/hr not-employees, massive tax evasion, and dishonesty with hardware issues

Apple's rumored to profit several hundred dollars per iPhone sold, between the $1.70/hr not-employees, massive tax evasion, and dishonesty with hardware issues there's not much left to respect them for. Privacy, with the caveat that you're not the product except for Google paying $9 billion to make you their product.

askafriend 7y ago
Do you know the market rate for this kind of labor in the area? Is Foxconn competitive with other manufacturers? Feel free to cite any numbers if you've got em. From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. A lot of people move just to work for Foxconn. So clearly there's a dynamic going on here that'll take more nuance to understand than can be painted with a broad brush stroke from a Western perspective.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively. That doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the "market rate" will always depress wages as much as possible, because that's what markets are supposed to do - and also to excuse. But there are human externalities, and it takes a rather strange view of the value of human life to ignore them. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-life-death-forbidden-city-longhua-suicide-apple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-l...
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively. I'm amused that you're saying this about Communist China. :D
    - wutbrodo 7y ago
      Well, "Communism with Chinese characteristics" is quite a strange beast.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    My argument isn't to excuse Foxconn. It's to point out that we're having this discussion at the wrong zoom level. There are complex geopolitical, social, and economic factors involved. In the system that exists, Foxconn is actually one of the better if not best actors. But of course HN wants to boil it down to Apple cutting a check to Foxconn employees because iPhone. Yes let's severely gimp a domestic company that generates over 5% of America's GDP (and 1% of the world's) in favor of paying Chinese manufacturers much more - when China incessantly steals American IP without care and prevents foreign companies from competing in their domestic markets. Great idea.
    - benologist 7y ago
      I don't really see how this is about Foxconn. Foxconn only hires those people for Apple and Apple only have Foxconn do it because they'd have to pay more to do it themselves. How much they're paid is dictated by Apple. I think there's some parallel with Uber's contractor-vs-employee situation but it's much more apparent when you consider these people are exclusively working on Apple devices, within Apple's supply chain, subject to Apple's rules and rulings, even some of the components and the software come from Apple employees. Their $1.70 an hour should be compared to the US federal minimum wage or something because that's the number Apple decided to skip out on, even as they hoarded a quarter trillion dollars.
      - askafriend 7y ago
        "If not to buy Apple, what’s the substitute – Samsung? Don’t you know that Samsung’s products are from its OEM factory in Tianjin? Samsung workers’ income and benefits are even worse than those at Foxconn. If not to buy iPad – (do you think) I will buy Android Pad? Have you ever been to the OEM factories for Lenovo and ASUS? Quanta, Compaq … factories of other companies are all worse than those for Apple. Not to buy iPod – (do you think) I will buy Aigo, Meizu? Do you know that Aigo’s Shenzhen factory will not pay their workers until the 19th of the second month? If you were to quit, fine, I’m sorry, your salary will be withdrawn. Foxconn never dares to do such things. First, their profit margin is higher than peers as they manufacture for Apple. Second, at least those foreign devils will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth" - Anonymous Chinese Worker https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-chinese-workers-want-those-jobs-foxconn/332419/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-... Again, I don't point this out because I think the conditions are OK. I simply point this out to provide context and relativity to the situation. Do you really think Apple is responsible for fixing China's problems? I don't think so. But they DO take responsibility and have made strides in improving conditions for workers that work on their products. And that, I can appreciate.
- criddell 7y ago
  What about the racism? Is there nuance in that as well?
  - patrick5415 7y ago
    Yeah, seems surprising that most of the comments are about the wages and not the racism.
- lixtra 7y ago
  > From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. The article states differently: >> Foxconn is known for its high staff turnover, largely because of the low monthly salary of 2,100 yuan per month (US$313) in Zhengzhou. By comparison, the average salary in the city of Zhengzhou in 2018 was 6,929 yuan (US$1,035) per month.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Average salaries can be very deceptive especially in developing nations. The real question is what someone with minimal skills or education can make in the area.
    - amelius 7y ago
      Or median salary instead of average salary.
      - golemiprague 7y ago
        and cost of living and what is the same relationship between average and factory work wages in the west. So yes, a clickbait

askafriend 7y ago

Do you know the market rate for this kind of labor in the area? Is Foxconn competitive with other manufacturers? Feel free to cite any numbers if you've got em. From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. A lot of people move just to work for Foxconn. So clearly there's a dynamic going on here that'll take more nuance to understand than can be painted with a broad brush stroke from a Western perspective.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively. That doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the "market rate" will always depress wages as much as possible, because that's what markets are supposed to do - and also to excuse. But there are human externalities, and it takes a rather strange view of the value of human life to ignore them. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-life-death-forbidden-city-longhua-suicide-apple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-l...
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively. I'm amused that you're saying this about Communist China. :D
  - wutbrodo 7y ago
    Well, "Communism with Chinese characteristics" is quite a strange beast.
- askafriend 7y ago
  My argument isn't to excuse Foxconn. It's to point out that we're having this discussion at the wrong zoom level. There are complex geopolitical, social, and economic factors involved. In the system that exists, Foxconn is actually one of the better if not best actors. But of course HN wants to boil it down to Apple cutting a check to Foxconn employees because iPhone. Yes let's severely gimp a domestic company that generates over 5% of America's GDP (and 1% of the world's) in favor of paying Chinese manufacturers much more - when China incessantly steals American IP without care and prevents foreign companies from competing in their domestic markets. Great idea.
  - benologist 7y ago
    I don't really see how this is about Foxconn. Foxconn only hires those people for Apple and Apple only have Foxconn do it because they'd have to pay more to do it themselves. How much they're paid is dictated by Apple. I think there's some parallel with Uber's contractor-vs-employee situation but it's much more apparent when you consider these people are exclusively working on Apple devices, within Apple's supply chain, subject to Apple's rules and rulings, even some of the components and the software come from Apple employees. Their $1.70 an hour should be compared to the US federal minimum wage or something because that's the number Apple decided to skip out on, even as they hoarded a quarter trillion dollars.
    - askafriend 7y ago
      "If not to buy Apple, what’s the substitute – Samsung? Don’t you know that Samsung’s products are from its OEM factory in Tianjin? Samsung workers’ income and benefits are even worse than those at Foxconn. If not to buy iPad – (do you think) I will buy Android Pad? Have you ever been to the OEM factories for Lenovo and ASUS? Quanta, Compaq … factories of other companies are all worse than those for Apple. Not to buy iPod – (do you think) I will buy Aigo, Meizu? Do you know that Aigo’s Shenzhen factory will not pay their workers until the 19th of the second month? If you were to quit, fine, I’m sorry, your salary will be withdrawn. Foxconn never dares to do such things. First, their profit margin is higher than peers as they manufacture for Apple. Second, at least those foreign devils will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth" - Anonymous Chinese Worker https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-chinese-workers-want-those-jobs-foxconn/332419/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-... Again, I don't point this out because I think the conditions are OK. I simply point this out to provide context and relativity to the situation. Do you really think Apple is responsible for fixing China's problems? I don't think so. But they DO take responsibility and have made strides in improving conditions for workers that work on their products. And that, I can appreciate.
criddell 7y ago
What about the racism? Is there nuance in that as well?
- patrick5415 7y ago
  Yeah, seems surprising that most of the comments are about the wages and not the racism.
lixtra 7y ago
> From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. The article states differently: >> Foxconn is known for its high staff turnover, largely because of the low monthly salary of 2,100 yuan per month (US$313) in Zhengzhou. By comparison, the average salary in the city of Zhengzhou in 2018 was 6,929 yuan (US$1,035) per month.
- Retric 7y ago
  Average salaries can be very deceptive especially in developing nations. The real question is what someone with minimal skills or education can make in the area.
  - amelius 7y ago
    Or median salary instead of average salary.
    - golemiprague 7y ago
      and cost of living and what is the same relationship between average and factory work wages in the west. So yes, a clickbait