6 ms·

Health Effects of Job Insecurity

78 points by joeyespo 7y ago

HillaryBriss 7y ago
a really important effect to consider. once a whole sector's jobs are outsourced to another country, the newly redundant workers not only have income problems, but health and mental health problems. globalization's costs are higher than predicted, especially in the US where healthcare is inefficient and overpriced.
- mjevans 7y ago
  I think this speaks more to a lack of a social safety net that actually works. A better social safety net would ensure that everyone had: * a home (near their family unit's job(s)) * a job suitable to talent/skills * education towards suitable jobs if out of work * good healthcare * good child/retired family care * a stable, inclusive, welcoming community
  - neilv 7y ago
    This is a good list. I'd change "talent/skills" to "skills/aspirations", because we believe too much in talent (whether for being discouraged when all it really needs is work, or for misplaced belief in our own innate merit).
    - mjevans 7y ago
      I'd maybe consider aptitudes and desires, it got a little muddled when I was trying to fit it in to a bullet-point list short enough to not irk mobile users. The lack of white-listed HTML / similar entities in formatting is a rather limiting factor for clearly conveying information. Ideally some combination of testing / recommending potential raw talent, desired areas of work/interaction, and trainable job fields could be considered and find a good fit where someone could form a positive component of a larger and vibrant community. Also, ideally, automation owned by the masses (we the people, via the government) could handle the tedious and annoying tasks.
- president 7y ago
  You would need to convince people to love their country more than they love advancing themselves and their bank accounts.
maxxxxx 7y ago
No surprise there. Feeling secure is one of the basic needs of people. It’s much easier to take risks if you have a fallback and don’t lose Berührung when things go wrong
- shoo 7y ago
  This can also be seen played out in the article's graphs comparing the impact of job security versus the individual's employability. The negative mental health impact of having no employment or insecure employment is somewhat mitigated if one is employable -- defined as "being sure of getting an equally good job". > much easier to take risks if you have a fallback i agree. if you are employable and can readily obtain a reasonable job, and have resources to keep operating for a period without having work, it is far easier to engage in riskier but potentially much more lucrative opportunities for work (starting new businesses, taking on short-term contract work with much higher rates than permanent salaries for the same role, etc) here's another interesting side of it: employability as defined above is a relative thing -- "being sure of getting an equally good job" [relative to your current job] . Suppose you have somehow found a job that is particularly good fit for you (perhaps it is very closely aligned with what you are interested in, and there are few other opportunities for such work, or it pays substantially above market rates given your skills and experience). You may be far more stressed about the possibility of losing your unusually good job due to how rare it is --- even though you may be highly employable in many other jobs or markets that you perceive as less good. You may also be more likely to put up with a large amount of stress and bullshit generated by your good job in order to hold onto it in comparison, someone who works for a job that may be objectively less good (e.g. repetitive work, less pay, greater risk of physical injury) but is in a market where there is a large amount of demand for similar work may be far less stressed about the possibility of losing their job simply because in this market they are highly employable and there aren't any particular above-market benefits of working for any particular employer.
code_duck 7y ago
Myself I am experiencing the job effects of health insecurity, which I would posit are much worse.
- sickguy 7y ago
  Same. It’s way worse... I basically have to be ready to leave my job at any time if it starts to get bad enough.
- jvagner 7y ago
  Sorry to hear that, but you're right. Add the two together, and boom. Worst case scenario.
  - code_duck 7y ago
    I’ve lost my ability to work and gotten reestablished twice in the last three years. For about 4 months now I have felt ready to work again, but where do you go from there? It’s not like you can just hop in and start doing it. I’ve lost my professional skills, my contacts, my clients, my workspace. Still working around feeling ill 40% of the time.
    - jvagner 7y ago
      Getting re-re-re-established undoubtedly seems daunting. You've explored remote/contracting?
      - code_duck 7y ago
        I’m actually trying to get reestablished as a glassblower. It’s low pressure and I can take days off as I see fit. I don’t feel right taking on the responsibility of doing tech jobs for anyone. Unfortunately it’s very difficult for me to share spaces with anyone, but at the same time, getting my own place could be a bad choice. If my health goes wrong again, moving out is a lot of effort and expense. I have had a couple promising tech projects over the past few years, but lost momentum and had to abandon them at various times.
vibrio 7y ago
To me the story seems to be The Health Effects of unemployability.
- chc 7y ago
  That seems like a distinction without difference unless your main goal is to place blame for their problems rather than examine the effects and remedies objectively.
  - vibrio 7y ago
    I see employability as a trait inherent to me. How I spend my time building my skill set, growing and maintaining relationships, and honing my story is what I see as my employability. I own it. It mitigates the risk from my choice to work in a role that provides me with a high level of Job Insecurity. I see job insecurity as something inherent to the company and/or role within a company. Such as being at a small company which focuses on the development of a novel technology and/or a product in an untested market. Investors and strategy partners may not provide funding one day and -poof’- Job is gone. One goal of my job to influence the investor and partners, but I don’t own it. I make the choice to endure job insecurity because I believe in the strategy and see it and an outsized opportunity. Also I've never had a 'secure job', but I've assumed in most cases it is naive to believe ones job is secure, either big company or small company. Stuff can happen quickly and arbitrarily. Just what I've observed. And based on the data in the OP study, I'd rather be employable and unemployed than unemployable and employed. This is what drove my initial comment. edit (add relevance to article)
enraged_camel 7y ago
At least in the US, one of the primary reasons job insecurity causes severe stress is that affordable health insurance that has reasonable coverage is usually only possible through employment. The moment you lose your job and your COBRA period runs out, you're at severe risk of financial catastrophe — the stress from which can lead to further health problems! This is why I strongly support Medicare For All. Massive cost savings at the national level aside, it's a critical part of the equation for regaining our collective sanity. Where I come from we have a saying: good health is the greatest treasure. It's a prerequisite for achieving success and happiness. Therefore we need a system where people don't constantly worry about crazy medical bills, and don't forego basic practices like regular doctor visits because they can't afford the co-pays.
- pitaj 7y ago
  Single-payer is one option, but for those of us who don't trust the US federal government to do it right, there is another option. There are three main reasons employer-provided insurance is so popular: - The ACA failed Americans by resulting in drastically higher insurance plan prices - The ACA requires employers to provide health insurance - A dollar spent by your employer on health insurance is not subject to payroll taxes, but individual plans are Additionally, a secondary effect of employers covering the insurance costs of their employees is that insurance is not subject to individual pricing pressure, since most people don't even know the cost of their insurance. To fix this, I propose the following: - Roll back the ACA, allow those with preexisting conditions to use medicare or medicaid instead - Provide tax benefits to people purchasing personal healthcare plans - Provide tax incentives for employers to transfer their company coverage to the individual employees
  - pnutjam 7y ago
    Translation, private companies make Bank and dump the unhealthy on taxpayers.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    >>but for those of us who don't trust the US federal government to do it right Why do you not trust them to do it right? Both Medicare and VA Health Care are run pretty well and are extremely popular amongst their recipients.
pkaye 7y ago
I'm trying to understand those graphs. They mention those graphs are on a scale of 0 to 100 but shows effects of 1 and 2. Is that considered a mild effect?
throwaway082729 7y ago
It's a huge concern for someone who's been a temporary worker for 17 years. My performance is usually in the top 3-5% but if I get laid off, I've to find a job in less than 60 days or go back to my home country which means I can never make any long-term decisions. Should I buy a house? Hmm maybe not since I might have to sell it when market conditions are not right. How should I invest my money? Keep everything in cash or invest in the stock market. I'm sure this is true for every single employee on a H1-B working for FAANG companies and patiently waiting for 10+ years. Now, the new immigration plan is going to not take those waiting in line into consideration and is instead going to make everyone wait in line again.
- justfor1comment 7y ago
  I know a lot of people having the same problem. They make a tonne of money by contributing to some of the best companies in the world. But they don't have basic things like a house or a sofa or a dining table. Most even lease cars for a few years, instead of buying them. All their belongings are such that they can fit in a few carry on bags in case they have to urgently leave the US.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  > if I get laid off, I've to find a job in less than 60 days or go back to my home country There's a silver lining to it. I've written about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858133

78 points by joeyespo 7y ago

a really important effect to consider. once a whole sector's jobs are outsourced to another country, the newly redundant workers not only have income problems, but health and mental health problems. globalization's costs are higher than predicted, especially in the US where healthcare is inefficient and overpriced.

mjevans 7y ago
I think this speaks more to a lack of a social safety net that actually works. A better social safety net would ensure that everyone had: * a home (near their family unit's job(s)) * a job suitable to talent/skills * education towards suitable jobs if out of work * good healthcare * good child/retired family care * a stable, inclusive, welcoming community
- neilv 7y ago
  This is a good list. I'd change "talent/skills" to "skills/aspirations", because we believe too much in talent (whether for being discouraged when all it really needs is work, or for misplaced belief in our own innate merit).
  - mjevans 7y ago
    I'd maybe consider aptitudes and desires, it got a little muddled when I was trying to fit it in to a bullet-point list short enough to not irk mobile users. The lack of white-listed HTML / similar entities in formatting is a rather limiting factor for clearly conveying information. Ideally some combination of testing / recommending potential raw talent, desired areas of work/interaction, and trainable job fields could be considered and find a good fit where someone could form a positive component of a larger and vibrant community. Also, ideally, automation owned by the masses (we the people, via the government) could handle the tedious and annoying tasks.
president 7y ago
You would need to convince people to love their country more than they love advancing themselves and their bank accounts.

maxxxxx 7y ago

No surprise there. Feeling secure is one of the basic needs of people. It’s much easier to take risks if you have a fallback and don’t lose Berührung when things go wrong

shoo 7y ago
This can also be seen played out in the article's graphs comparing the impact of job security versus the individual's employability. The negative mental health impact of having no employment or insecure employment is somewhat mitigated if one is employable -- defined as "being sure of getting an equally good job". > much easier to take risks if you have a fallback i agree. if you are employable and can readily obtain a reasonable job, and have resources to keep operating for a period without having work, it is far easier to engage in riskier but potentially much more lucrative opportunities for work (starting new businesses, taking on short-term contract work with much higher rates than permanent salaries for the same role, etc) here's another interesting side of it: employability as defined above is a relative thing -- "being sure of getting an equally good job" [relative to your current job] . Suppose you have somehow found a job that is particularly good fit for you (perhaps it is very closely aligned with what you are interested in, and there are few other opportunities for such work, or it pays substantially above market rates given your skills and experience). You may be far more stressed about the possibility of losing your unusually good job due to how rare it is --- even though you may be highly employable in many other jobs or markets that you perceive as less good. You may also be more likely to put up with a large amount of stress and bullshit generated by your good job in order to hold onto it in comparison, someone who works for a job that may be objectively less good (e.g. repetitive work, less pay, greater risk of physical injury) but is in a market where there is a large amount of demand for similar work may be far less stressed about the possibility of losing their job simply because in this market they are highly employable and there aren't any particular above-market benefits of working for any particular employer.

code_duck 7y ago

Myself I am experiencing the job effects of health insecurity, which I would posit are much worse.

sickguy 7y ago
Same. It’s way worse... I basically have to be ready to leave my job at any time if it starts to get bad enough.
jvagner 7y ago
Sorry to hear that, but you're right. Add the two together, and boom. Worst case scenario.
- code_duck 7y ago
  I’ve lost my ability to work and gotten reestablished twice in the last three years. For about 4 months now I have felt ready to work again, but where do you go from there? It’s not like you can just hop in and start doing it. I’ve lost my professional skills, my contacts, my clients, my workspace. Still working around feeling ill 40% of the time.
  - jvagner 7y ago
    Getting re-re-re-established undoubtedly seems daunting. You've explored remote/contracting?
    - code_duck 7y ago
      I’m actually trying to get reestablished as a glassblower. It’s low pressure and I can take days off as I see fit. I don’t feel right taking on the responsibility of doing tech jobs for anyone. Unfortunately it’s very difficult for me to share spaces with anyone, but at the same time, getting my own place could be a bad choice. If my health goes wrong again, moving out is a lot of effort and expense. I have had a couple promising tech projects over the past few years, but lost momentum and had to abandon them at various times.

vibrio 7y ago

To me the story seems to be The Health Effects of unemployability.

chc 7y ago
That seems like a distinction without difference unless your main goal is to place blame for their problems rather than examine the effects and remedies objectively.
- vibrio 7y ago
  I see employability as a trait inherent to me. How I spend my time building my skill set, growing and maintaining relationships, and honing my story is what I see as my employability. I own it. It mitigates the risk from my choice to work in a role that provides me with a high level of Job Insecurity. I see job insecurity as something inherent to the company and/or role within a company. Such as being at a small company which focuses on the development of a novel technology and/or a product in an untested market. Investors and strategy partners may not provide funding one day and -poof’- Job is gone. One goal of my job to influence the investor and partners, but I don’t own it. I make the choice to endure job insecurity because I believe in the strategy and see it and an outsized opportunity. Also I've never had a 'secure job', but I've assumed in most cases it is naive to believe ones job is secure, either big company or small company. Stuff can happen quickly and arbitrarily. Just what I've observed. And based on the data in the OP study, I'd rather be employable and unemployed than unemployable and employed. This is what drove my initial comment. edit (add relevance to article)

enraged_camel 7y ago

At least in the US, one of the primary reasons job insecurity causes severe stress is that affordable health insurance that has reasonable coverage is usually only possible through employment. The moment you lose your job and your COBRA period runs out, you're at severe risk of financial catastrophe — the stress from which can lead to further health problems! This is why I strongly support Medicare For All. Massive cost savings at the national level aside, it's a critical part of the equation for regaining our collective sanity. Where I come from we have a saying: good health is the greatest treasure. It's a prerequisite for achieving success and happiness. Therefore we need a system where people don't constantly worry about crazy medical bills, and don't forego basic practices like regular doctor visits because they can't afford the co-pays.

pitaj 7y ago
Single-payer is one option, but for those of us who don't trust the US federal government to do it right, there is another option. There are three main reasons employer-provided insurance is so popular: - The ACA failed Americans by resulting in drastically higher insurance plan prices - The ACA requires employers to provide health insurance - A dollar spent by your employer on health insurance is not subject to payroll taxes, but individual plans are Additionally, a secondary effect of employers covering the insurance costs of their employees is that insurance is not subject to individual pricing pressure, since most people don't even know the cost of their insurance. To fix this, I propose the following: - Roll back the ACA, allow those with preexisting conditions to use medicare or medicaid instead - Provide tax benefits to people purchasing personal healthcare plans - Provide tax incentives for employers to transfer their company coverage to the individual employees
- pnutjam 7y ago
  Translation, private companies make Bank and dump the unhealthy on taxpayers.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  >>but for those of us who don't trust the US federal government to do it right Why do you not trust them to do it right? Both Medicare and VA Health Care are run pretty well and are extremely popular amongst their recipients.

pkaye 7y ago

I'm trying to understand those graphs. They mention those graphs are on a scale of 0 to 100 but shows effects of 1 and 2. Is that considered a mild effect?

throwaway082729 7y ago

It's a huge concern for someone who's been a temporary worker for 17 years. My performance is usually in the top 3-5% but if I get laid off, I've to find a job in less than 60 days or go back to my home country which means I can never make any long-term decisions. Should I buy a house? Hmm maybe not since I might have to sell it when market conditions are not right. How should I invest my money? Keep everything in cash or invest in the stock market. I'm sure this is true for every single employee on a H1-B working for FAANG companies and patiently waiting for 10+ years. Now, the new immigration plan is going to not take those waiting in line into consideration and is instead going to make everyone wait in line again.

justfor1comment 7y ago
I know a lot of people having the same problem. They make a tonne of money by contributing to some of the best companies in the world. But they don't have basic things like a house or a sofa or a dining table. Most even lease cars for a few years, instead of buying them. All their belongings are such that they can fit in a few carry on bags in case they have to urgently leave the US.
winter_blue 7y ago
> if I get laid off, I've to find a job in less than 60 days or go back to my home country There's a silver lining to it. I've written about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858133