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Einstein's Defense of Socialism

21 points by lists 16y ago

plesn 16y ago
Interesting, even though i'm not suprised knowing Einstein's affinity for Spinoza : he must have carefully read Marx and other materialist philosophers.
OstiaAntica 16y ago
Ironic that Einstein, writing in America after fleeing the horrors of national socialism in Germany, still entertained notions of subjugating the individual to the state.
- kingkilr 16y ago
  Uhh, you know that the National Socialist Worker's Party didn't really have anything to do with socialism?
  - TomOfTTB 16y ago
    I'm sorry but that just isn't correct. I'm absolutely not saying all socialists are Nazis but the Nazi party was an extreme example of the socialist philosophy. That philosophy being that the Government should use its power to socially engineer a better world (the opposite of which being the libertarian philosophy that the Government should exist to protect people against social engineering by allowing them to do what they want even if those actions are detrimental). Obviously it's all a sliding scale but to say OstiaAntica is flat out wrong is not accurate.
    - andyv 16y ago
      The Nazis were facists, which is to say that there was "private property", but the state could tell you what you had to do with "your" property. In socialism, the state owns the property. It's a distinction without much of a difference, the main one being that socialism is a little more honest.
      - foljs 16y ago
        Spoken like a true 5 minute dabbler with an extremely cursory knowledge of the topic at hand. Bravo! Actually, the "state owning the property" is not a core idea of socialism --it was only a "feature" of "really existing socialism", and even USSR had things like the NEP. Except for the backward places where "really existing socialism" developed, extremely few europeans (or american for that matter) socialists believed that it was a proper socialism at all. As in, there are several types of socialism. Things americans complain about and deny as "socialism" (universal health care, for one), are proposed by even right-wing parties in Europe. I'm sorry, but a cursory glance at one book or a documentary, or something heard from a friend of a friend, won't do. In order to intelligently discuss matters of world politics one has to do a little research. And it would be better if that research was impartial. Buy some books from both sides of the argument, and from both sides of the atlantic (and even the pacific). The average opinion even on this matters, even on a site like "Hacker News" is often little better than what creationists know about evolution.
    - ippisl 16y ago
      The main problem with nazism(and probably communism) is that it isn't democratic, not that it's socialistic. Social engineering can be a good thing, in the right quantities. just look at sweden. but it's very hard to achieve this right quantity under a dictatorship, not to talk about the awfull people that usually lead dictatorships.
    - papaf 16y ago
      I highly recommend the Political Compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ http://www.politicalcompass.org/ It changed my 1 dimensional thinking about the sliding scale between left and right and I feel richer for it.
- foljs 16y ago
  Emm, actually Hitler adopted the "Socialism" part of "National Socialism" in order to win leftist votes, in a giant bait-and-switch scheme. The Nazi party had nothing to do with socialism, as the term was and is known and defined in the relevant political literature. Or, more correctly, the horrors of Nazi germany had nothing to do with economic regulation and the social health care et al, and all to do with racist ideology, dictatorship and imperialism. Actually, Sweden is socialist, in the sense most americans define the word, as well as New Zealand, and it's all the better for them --and they have tens times more refined than either US Republican or Democrat policies.
cma 16y ago
The taboo is extremely strong here on Hacker News.
- davidj 16y ago
  it is ironic that this site is dedicated to entrepreneurship, but is full of people who are anti-capitalist and promote socialism.
joeycfan 16y ago
Proof that even smart guys can be stupid sometime.
NicuCalcea 16y ago
I feel like you are all somehow far from the truth. I live in Moldova, a state that appeared as a consequence of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact (also known as the Stalin-Hitler pact). We had the Communist Party ruling our country until 2 years ago. I've been talking to both Romanian (Fascist) and Russian (Soviet) soldiers, and they all agree, both Nazism and Communism are socialistic regimes. I strongly recommend "The Soviet Story", watching it might clear your views.
- maxharris 16y ago
  http://ia700107.us.archive.org/17/items/TheSovietStory/THE_SOVIET_STORY_512kb.mp4 http://ia700107.us.archive.org/17/items/TheSovietStory/THE_S... "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way." ... "They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust." - Karl Marx Everyone should watch this movie - especially people that think that socialism is a benign idea.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - applicative 16y ago
    `maxharris` is either a moron or a liar, or more probably both. The first fragment of this sentence is genuine Marx, writing for the New York Daily Tribune, as a one-second search would have shown him. The second I cannot find; it is certainly not in the same article, as the ellipsis fraudulently suggests. If it exists the chances that it refers to a transition to socialism, communism, or whatever Marx is supposed to have favored, are certainly zero. In the Daily Tribune article, Marx is discussing emigration (mostly to America) from England, Ireland and Scotland, in the years around 1850, and the gruesome commentary of English writers of the period. The Economist, for example, he quotes as writing: "The departure of the redundant part of the population of Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland is an indispensable preliminary to every kind of improvement. The revenue of Ireland has not suffered in any degree from the famine of 1846-47, or from the emigration that has since taken place. On the contrary, her net revenue amounted in 1851 to £4,281,999, being about £184,000 greater than in 1843" I.e. they "regard ‘Net-Revenue’ as the Moloch to whom entire populations must be sacrificed..." as Marx puts the view of the Ricardians. The context can be found here on a website for true believers: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm I don't see any easy way of search for ancient Economist articles, but I notice that in the same year the American writer Carey quoted the same passage as from "Economist, (London,) Feb. 12, 1853." in his book on the slave trade http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8000/pg8000.txt http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8000/pg8000.txt

21 points by lists 16y ago

plesn 16y ago

Interesting, even though i'm not suprised knowing Einstein's affinity for Spinoza : he must have carefully read Marx and other materialist philosophers.

OstiaAntica 16y ago

Ironic that Einstein, writing in America after fleeing the horrors of national socialism in Germany, still entertained notions of subjugating the individual to the state.

kingkilr 16y ago
Uhh, you know that the National Socialist Worker's Party didn't really have anything to do with socialism?
- TomOfTTB 16y ago
  I'm sorry but that just isn't correct. I'm absolutely not saying all socialists are Nazis but the Nazi party was an extreme example of the socialist philosophy. That philosophy being that the Government should use its power to socially engineer a better world (the opposite of which being the libertarian philosophy that the Government should exist to protect people against social engineering by allowing them to do what they want even if those actions are detrimental). Obviously it's all a sliding scale but to say OstiaAntica is flat out wrong is not accurate.
  - andyv 16y ago
    The Nazis were facists, which is to say that there was "private property", but the state could tell you what you had to do with "your" property. In socialism, the state owns the property. It's a distinction without much of a difference, the main one being that socialism is a little more honest.
    - foljs 16y ago
      Spoken like a true 5 minute dabbler with an extremely cursory knowledge of the topic at hand. Bravo! Actually, the "state owning the property" is not a core idea of socialism --it was only a "feature" of "really existing socialism", and even USSR had things like the NEP. Except for the backward places where "really existing socialism" developed, extremely few europeans (or american for that matter) socialists believed that it was a proper socialism at all. As in, there are several types of socialism. Things americans complain about and deny as "socialism" (universal health care, for one), are proposed by even right-wing parties in Europe. I'm sorry, but a cursory glance at one book or a documentary, or something heard from a friend of a friend, won't do. In order to intelligently discuss matters of world politics one has to do a little research. And it would be better if that research was impartial. Buy some books from both sides of the argument, and from both sides of the atlantic (and even the pacific). The average opinion even on this matters, even on a site like "Hacker News" is often little better than what creationists know about evolution.
  - ippisl 16y ago
    The main problem with nazism(and probably communism) is that it isn't democratic, not that it's socialistic. Social engineering can be a good thing, in the right quantities. just look at sweden. but it's very hard to achieve this right quantity under a dictatorship, not to talk about the awfull people that usually lead dictatorships.
  - papaf 16y ago
    I highly recommend the Political Compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ http://www.politicalcompass.org/ It changed my 1 dimensional thinking about the sliding scale between left and right and I feel richer for it.
foljs 16y ago
Emm, actually Hitler adopted the "Socialism" part of "National Socialism" in order to win leftist votes, in a giant bait-and-switch scheme. The Nazi party had nothing to do with socialism, as the term was and is known and defined in the relevant political literature. Or, more correctly, the horrors of Nazi germany had nothing to do with economic regulation and the social health care et al, and all to do with racist ideology, dictatorship and imperialism. Actually, Sweden is socialist, in the sense most americans define the word, as well as New Zealand, and it's all the better for them --and they have tens times more refined than either US Republican or Democrat policies.

cma 16y ago

The taboo is extremely strong here on Hacker News.

davidj 16y ago
it is ironic that this site is dedicated to entrepreneurship, but is full of people who are anti-capitalist and promote socialism.

joeycfan 16y ago

Proof that even smart guys can be stupid sometime.

NicuCalcea 16y ago

I feel like you are all somehow far from the truth. I live in Moldova, a state that appeared as a consequence of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact (also known as the Stalin-Hitler pact). We had the Communist Party ruling our country until 2 years ago. I've been talking to both Romanian (Fascist) and Russian (Soviet) soldiers, and they all agree, both Nazism and Communism are socialistic regimes. I strongly recommend "The Soviet Story", watching it might clear your views.

maxharris 16y ago
http://ia700107.us.archive.org/17/items/TheSovietStory/THE_SOVIET_STORY_512kb.mp4 http://ia700107.us.archive.org/17/items/TheSovietStory/THE_S... "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way." ... "They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust." - Karl Marx Everyone should watch this movie - especially people that think that socialism is a benign idea.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- applicative 16y ago
  `maxharris` is either a moron or a liar, or more probably both. The first fragment of this sentence is genuine Marx, writing for the New York Daily Tribune, as a one-second search would have shown him. The second I cannot find; it is certainly not in the same article, as the ellipsis fraudulently suggests. If it exists the chances that it refers to a transition to socialism, communism, or whatever Marx is supposed to have favored, are certainly zero. In the Daily Tribune article, Marx is discussing emigration (mostly to America) from England, Ireland and Scotland, in the years around 1850, and the gruesome commentary of English writers of the period. The Economist, for example, he quotes as writing: "The departure of the redundant part of the population of Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland is an indispensable preliminary to every kind of improvement. The revenue of Ireland has not suffered in any degree from the famine of 1846-47, or from the emigration that has since taken place. On the contrary, her net revenue amounted in 1851 to £4,281,999, being about £184,000 greater than in 1843" I.e. they "regard ‘Net-Revenue’ as the Moloch to whom entire populations must be sacrificed..." as Marx puts the view of the Ricardians. The context can be found here on a website for true believers: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm I don't see any easy way of search for ancient Economist articles, but I notice that in the same year the American writer Carey quoted the same passage as from "Economist, (London,) Feb. 12, 1853." in his book on the slave trade http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8000/pg8000.txt http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8000/pg8000.txt