7 ms·

Google finally advances Linux+Vulkan gaming using a side door that bypasses the market share blocker altogether. MS and Sony don't like it and plan to mirror Go

by shmerl 8y ago

Google finally advances Linux+Vulkan gaming using a side door that bypasses the market share blocker altogether. MS and Sony don't like it and plan to mirror Google. Instead, they should stop being lock-in jerks, and should support Vulkan as well.

chronogram 8y ago
How is that Google streaming gaming thing not Google being "lock-in jerks" then?
- shmerl 8y ago
  In their context, lock-in could happen if they'll start pushing exclusives. But in technology sense, they are advancing common stack (Linux / Vulkan), unlike MS and Sony who use tools lock-in to discourage platform development by making it more costly.
  - la_barba 8y ago
    Can you explain how its not a lock-in? It seems to require a Google account and is limited to games that are blessed by google. AFAIK, I don't think I can download Stadia and run it on a home server and stream games to multiple PCs in my own home. If Google made it open source, then yes, I'm 100% with you...
    - shmerl 8y ago
      Lock-in as in requiring to use Stadia to get certain games. Store lock-in (exclusivity) isn't much better than technology lock-in.
- skohan 8y ago
  Presumably if Google makes game development for Linux commercially viable, that will make for much more vibrant community support (tooling etc.) for local Linux as well. That plus what Valve is doing with Proton could potentially break the stranglehold Windows has on PC gaming. I personally would go 100% linux on my media PC if I did not occasionally play games on Windows.
  - KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
    I think a lot of people don't expect games released on Stadia to ever be downloadable. It won't help linux at all.
    - savethefuture 8y ago
      They most likely wont be released, but the hope is that google contributes to open source like vulkan, linux video drivers, graphics rendering, as well as potentially release their own tooling.
      - shmerl 8y ago
        Some of them not (from legacy publishers). Others from normal ones will, especially since they'll see it as "why not reach more users, we already did all the heavy lifting anyway", instead of legacy publishers' scornful "why do it, who is using Linux?".
skohan 8y ago
I'm a huge fan of the fact that Google is embracing a Linux + Vulkan stack for gaming, but I also want them to have meaningful competition. Yes it would be a dream scenario if MS & Sony started supporting Vulkan, but it would also be a nightmare scenario if Stadia started dominating the gaming market, and gaming technology stagnated for a decade at Vega56-class GPU's because there is no competitive pressure to push the envelope.
- shmerl 8y ago
  Sure, competition is good. But it doesn't mean it should come with lock-in problems. MS learned not to mess things up on the Web (remember ActiveX and Silverlight?). But when it comes to gaming, they are still as nasty as in the '90s. And Sony is even worse in this regard. I agree about Stadia in general. I wouldn't want it to become too dominant, especially since it's like DRM on steroids - you can't back up anything from there. In general, I don't think regular gaming stores that sell rather than rent games are going anywhere. I.e. GOG, Steam and others are going to stay around. As long as Stadia won't be pushing exclusives, things will be good, since some will always prefer to run games locally.
  - skohan 8y ago
    I suppose if Google starts kicking their butts in cloud gaming, they might loosen their stances on lock-in technologies in an effort to attract developers.
    - shmerl 8y ago
      That's what I hope for. MS stopped being lock-in jerks on the Web only when they practically lost the browser wars. They need a stronger kick in gaming too, to start using cross platform technologies.
  - loudmax 8y ago
    I think a lot of people are going to prefer to run games locally. I'm looking forward to playing strategy games on Stadia or games where lag isn't too critical. For quick reflex games, lag is important. And if VR games ever take off, lag is going to be critical.
deafcalculus 8y ago
The graphics API isn't that big a deal anymore. It's often a pretty small part of the engine codebase. Many games, especially those built on the popular engines like Unity, support both DirectX and Vulkan (and Sony's API too).
- shmerl 8y ago
  It is a lot bigger deal than you think, including for those very engine developers who work on Unity and etc. Having to deal with all extra lock-in APIs doesn't come for free. It takes time, resources and slows down releasing features to their users.
  - unsigner 8y ago
    Vulkan _is_ a lock-in API, locking you into Google platforms; the one commercially viable platform using it is [recent versions of] Google's Android with another one on the horizon - Google Stadia. It's not necessary on Windows, not available on two of the three consoles, and not available without a wrapper on iOS and OSX. (Technically, it is also available on Nintendo Switch, but there's also an arguably better alternative there.)
    - shmerl 8y ago
      What? Vulkan is cross platform, not limited to Google or anyone else. You want Vulkan on your hardware and your OS? No one is stopping you from making a driver for it, it's an open API. For example, radv was made as Vulkan driver for AMD on Linux without AMD directly involved even (with big contributions from Valve). If MS and Sony wanted, they could have Vulkan driver for Xbox and PlayStation tomorrow, since they are all using AMD GPUs. And no one stopped Apple from supporting Vulkan on their systems either. They don't, since they are also lock-in jerks, which is exactly the point I was making above.
    - skohan 8y ago
      That's just plain incorrect. There are already mainstream AAA titles targeting Vulkan published for Windows and macOS (via MoltenVK). Doom Eternal will only target Vulkan on PC : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_7
zdw 8y ago
AMD is the big winner here, being behind the MS and Sony consoles for the last (and likely future) console generations and the Google Stadia service. And with their GPU's going into datacenters and a move away from CUDA lock-in to OpenCL (example: https://www.openwall.com/lists/announce/2019/05/14/1 https://www.openwall.com/lists/announce/2019/05/14/1 ), they're in a great position to increase market share of GPU accelerated tasks like AI and deep learning.
- sosodev 8y ago
  Isn't it already confirmed that next gen Song and Microsoft consoles are still with AMD?
  - UI_at_80x24 8y ago
    Yes
cududa 8y ago
Microsoft has been working on this ~2008. Google only started a few years ago.
- shmerl 8y ago
  Yet MS is clearly uneasy now, since Google kicked them with Linux+Vulkan choice which will erode MS grip on gaming development.
  - cududa 8y ago
    Absolutely not. Game developers have deep deep knowledge in making games for Windows and PlayStation type OS’+hardware. Studios aren’t going to spend years having their devs relearn nuances specific to Google’s Linux implementation
    - shmerl 8y ago
      They totally will, if Google will wave the huge user base size in front of them (which Google already did). So MS grip on gaming developers' mind share will fly out of the windows. That's the best thing I see coming out of Stadia and it's something MS clearly are scared of, since when it comes to their gaming business, they are used to lock-in and years of developers' mind share domination, rather than competition on merit.
- skohan 8y ago
  Yeah but Google has serious bonafides as far as delivering high-res video at scale. Stadia is just Youtube with input handling and a game renderer instead of video files producing the frames.
  - cududa 8y ago
    Wrong. Microsoft perfected this years ago with their Azure hosted desktop product. They’ve been working on high-res compression of GPU frames before Google even put a dedicated GPU cluster in their data centers
  - 8y ago
neilv 8y ago
I'd be happy if Valve became a middleperson for AAA titles native on Linux+Vulkan. They have SteamOS and a decent controller ready to resurrect, and everyone to slap on PC hardware consoles again, given a makeover. (Things like Wine are effectively sabotage.)
- skohan 8y ago
  I'm not convinced they have the core competencies required to pull it off. It seemed like they had the hype and market positioning to pull it off the first time around, but just expected 3rd party hardware vendors to do the work and make SteamBox a thing via the magic of the free market. I think it might have worked if they put together an excellent 1st party product and gave it a real marketing push.
  - neilv 8y ago
    It would've helped if the top titles were there. (If you bought/built a SteamOS box, you have a rough-looking thing that doesn't play top games, when you could instead just run Windows+Steam, or get a Sony or MS console, any of which would play most things.) Valve seemed to not make the final marketing push on Steam Machines, that I could see. Maybe because they realized that it wasn't coming together. And/or maybe it was intended as a warning, to not be forced out when MS was grabbing the app store. Your idea of Valve in making a console themselves is interesting. They did get some limited experience with hardware, with the controller and the thin device. I don't know what all would go into some kind of manufacturing and branding partnership. One thing that I think didn't happen is an initial loss-leader on the console, to bring people into the lock-in ecosystem, like the console companies might do. I don't see how the third parties had that incentive. And I don't know how loss-leader works if whatever anyone builds is just a commodity PC.
- imtringued 8y ago
  Wine and Proton are exactly the type of solution that I want. It works and it will get better every year. Linux users can run software without explicit vendor support. (software freedom 0 [0]) It doesn't burden corporations with expensive Linux support. Everyone is happy. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
partiallypro 8y ago
You mean, the project Google will cancel in 3 years? Yeah, I'm sure the two gaming behemoths that have been demoing the cloud working in conjunction with games for the past decade made their decision based on that. Microsoft demoed cloud compute doing physics calculations in games...what? 8 years ago? Sony already has a game streaming service. Microsoft is expected to make an announcement this E3 on the topic. Microsoft and Sony want to be relevant in a mobile world too...that's what this is all about. They both were shutout of the mobile piece of the pie in gaming, and they are coming back for it. Microsoft and Sony want their gaming ecosystem on mobile devices with the ability to cross-play with wired devices powered by their SaaS models, Xbox Live and Playstation Online. That market is much bigger than the market they've already captured.
cwyers 8y ago
How does Stadia advance Linux+Vulkan? The games run in a data center (and they're not running a standard Linux port, the presentations I saw made it sound like they were running basically another console port).
- earenndil 8y ago
  Still, the games will have a vulkan renderer and run on some form of linux, making an official port to the actual OS more likely.
  - cwyers 8y ago
    The Xbox One has an NT kernel and DirectX as the graphics API. Stadia's use of Linux and Vulkan are probably about as helpful for a port to desktop Linux as an Xbox One game is for a Windows port.
    - acolumb 8y ago
      That analogy is the biggest thing to happen for Linux porting since Valve's Proton SDK - all future MS-funded Xbox One games do come to Windows (albeit as UWPs) and run great.
      - cwyers 8y ago
        I think "MS-funded" is doing a lot more of the work there than the kernel and graphics API are.
- shmerl 8y ago
  More gaming developers becoming familiar with Linux+Vulkan, more games ported to Stadia's Linux, all that means more potential releases for normal desktop Linux as well. Not all who target Stadia will clearly do it, but potential is surely better than without Stadia. So I see it as net positive for Linux gaming.
coffekaesque 8y ago
Very interesting talk about Stadia, latency, Linux, Vulkan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE > The inside story of how DOOM came to life on Stadia. id Software delivers a bird’s eye view of real-world Stadia development from conception to execution. Learn how high-performance games are made on Google’s new streaming platform. Recorded at GDC 2019.
duxup 8y ago
Do we feel like Google's efforts are a ... viable thing yet? Not really sure the Sony and MS thing are a reaction, and I'm not sure Google's thing is so much a thing. Some of Google's PR about how whatever it is they're doing is going to be all things (their statements have been strange IMO) could just be unfocused PR, or just an unfocused product.

by shmerl 8y ago

chronogram 8y ago

How is that Google streaming gaming thing not Google being "lock-in jerks" then?

shmerl 8y ago
In their context, lock-in could happen if they'll start pushing exclusives. But in technology sense, they are advancing common stack (Linux / Vulkan), unlike MS and Sony who use tools lock-in to discourage platform development by making it more costly.
- la_barba 8y ago
  Can you explain how its not a lock-in? It seems to require a Google account and is limited to games that are blessed by google. AFAIK, I don't think I can download Stadia and run it on a home server and stream games to multiple PCs in my own home. If Google made it open source, then yes, I'm 100% with you...
  - shmerl 8y ago
    Lock-in as in requiring to use Stadia to get certain games. Store lock-in (exclusivity) isn't much better than technology lock-in.
skohan 8y ago
Presumably if Google makes game development for Linux commercially viable, that will make for much more vibrant community support (tooling etc.) for local Linux as well. That plus what Valve is doing with Proton could potentially break the stranglehold Windows has on PC gaming. I personally would go 100% linux on my media PC if I did not occasionally play games on Windows.
- KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
  I think a lot of people don't expect games released on Stadia to ever be downloadable. It won't help linux at all.
  - savethefuture 8y ago
    They most likely wont be released, but the hope is that google contributes to open source like vulkan, linux video drivers, graphics rendering, as well as potentially release their own tooling.
    - shmerl 8y ago
      Some of them not (from legacy publishers). Others from normal ones will, especially since they'll see it as "why not reach more users, we already did all the heavy lifting anyway", instead of legacy publishers' scornful "why do it, who is using Linux?".

skohan 8y ago

I'm a huge fan of the fact that Google is embracing a Linux + Vulkan stack for gaming, but I also want them to have meaningful competition. Yes it would be a dream scenario if MS & Sony started supporting Vulkan, but it would also be a nightmare scenario if Stadia started dominating the gaming market, and gaming technology stagnated for a decade at Vega56-class GPU's because there is no competitive pressure to push the envelope.

shmerl 8y ago
Sure, competition is good. But it doesn't mean it should come with lock-in problems. MS learned not to mess things up on the Web (remember ActiveX and Silverlight?). But when it comes to gaming, they are still as nasty as in the '90s. And Sony is even worse in this regard. I agree about Stadia in general. I wouldn't want it to become too dominant, especially since it's like DRM on steroids - you can't back up anything from there. In general, I don't think regular gaming stores that sell rather than rent games are going anywhere. I.e. GOG, Steam and others are going to stay around. As long as Stadia won't be pushing exclusives, things will be good, since some will always prefer to run games locally.
- skohan 8y ago
  I suppose if Google starts kicking their butts in cloud gaming, they might loosen their stances on lock-in technologies in an effort to attract developers.
  - shmerl 8y ago
    That's what I hope for. MS stopped being lock-in jerks on the Web only when they practically lost the browser wars. They need a stronger kick in gaming too, to start using cross platform technologies.
- loudmax 8y ago
  I think a lot of people are going to prefer to run games locally. I'm looking forward to playing strategy games on Stadia or games where lag isn't too critical. For quick reflex games, lag is important. And if VR games ever take off, lag is going to be critical.

deafcalculus 8y ago

The graphics API isn't that big a deal anymore. It's often a pretty small part of the engine codebase. Many games, especially those built on the popular engines like Unity, support both DirectX and Vulkan (and Sony's API too).

shmerl 8y ago
It is a lot bigger deal than you think, including for those very engine developers who work on Unity and etc. Having to deal with all extra lock-in APIs doesn't come for free. It takes time, resources and slows down releasing features to their users.
- unsigner 8y ago
  Vulkan _is_ a lock-in API, locking you into Google platforms; the one commercially viable platform using it is [recent versions of] Google's Android with another one on the horizon - Google Stadia. It's not necessary on Windows, not available on two of the three consoles, and not available without a wrapper on iOS and OSX. (Technically, it is also available on Nintendo Switch, but there's also an arguably better alternative there.)
  - shmerl 8y ago
    What? Vulkan is cross platform, not limited to Google or anyone else. You want Vulkan on your hardware and your OS? No one is stopping you from making a driver for it, it's an open API. For example, radv was made as Vulkan driver for AMD on Linux without AMD directly involved even (with big contributions from Valve). If MS and Sony wanted, they could have Vulkan driver for Xbox and PlayStation tomorrow, since they are all using AMD GPUs. And no one stopped Apple from supporting Vulkan on their systems either. They don't, since they are also lock-in jerks, which is exactly the point I was making above.
  - skohan 8y ago
    That's just plain incorrect. There are already mainstream AAA titles targeting Vulkan published for Windows and macOS (via MoltenVK). Doom Eternal will only target Vulkan on PC : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_7

zdw 8y ago

AMD is the big winner here, being behind the MS and Sony consoles for the last (and likely future) console generations and the Google Stadia service. And with their GPU's going into datacenters and a move away from CUDA lock-in to OpenCL (example: https://www.openwall.com/lists/announce/2019/05/14/1 https://www.openwall.com/lists/announce/2019/05/14/1 ), they're in a great position to increase market share of GPU accelerated tasks like AI and deep learning.

sosodev 8y ago
Isn't it already confirmed that next gen Song and Microsoft consoles are still with AMD?
- UI_at_80x24 8y ago
  Yes

cududa 8y ago

Microsoft has been working on this ~2008. Google only started a few years ago.

shmerl 8y ago
Yet MS is clearly uneasy now, since Google kicked them with Linux+Vulkan choice which will erode MS grip on gaming development.
- cududa 8y ago
  Absolutely not. Game developers have deep deep knowledge in making games for Windows and PlayStation type OS’+hardware. Studios aren’t going to spend years having their devs relearn nuances specific to Google’s Linux implementation
  - shmerl 8y ago
    They totally will, if Google will wave the huge user base size in front of them (which Google already did). So MS grip on gaming developers' mind share will fly out of the windows. That's the best thing I see coming out of Stadia and it's something MS clearly are scared of, since when it comes to their gaming business, they are used to lock-in and years of developers' mind share domination, rather than competition on merit.
skohan 8y ago
Yeah but Google has serious bonafides as far as delivering high-res video at scale. Stadia is just Youtube with input handling and a game renderer instead of video files producing the frames.
- cududa 8y ago
  Wrong. Microsoft perfected this years ago with their Azure hosted desktop product. They’ve been working on high-res compression of GPU frames before Google even put a dedicated GPU cluster in their data centers
- 8y ago

neilv 8y ago

I'd be happy if Valve became a middleperson for AAA titles native on Linux+Vulkan. They have SteamOS and a decent controller ready to resurrect, and everyone to slap on PC hardware consoles again, given a makeover. (Things like Wine are effectively sabotage.)

skohan 8y ago
I'm not convinced they have the core competencies required to pull it off. It seemed like they had the hype and market positioning to pull it off the first time around, but just expected 3rd party hardware vendors to do the work and make SteamBox a thing via the magic of the free market. I think it might have worked if they put together an excellent 1st party product and gave it a real marketing push.
- neilv 8y ago
  It would've helped if the top titles were there. (If you bought/built a SteamOS box, you have a rough-looking thing that doesn't play top games, when you could instead just run Windows+Steam, or get a Sony or MS console, any of which would play most things.) Valve seemed to not make the final marketing push on Steam Machines, that I could see. Maybe because they realized that it wasn't coming together. And/or maybe it was intended as a warning, to not be forced out when MS was grabbing the app store. Your idea of Valve in making a console themselves is interesting. They did get some limited experience with hardware, with the controller and the thin device. I don't know what all would go into some kind of manufacturing and branding partnership. One thing that I think didn't happen is an initial loss-leader on the console, to bring people into the lock-in ecosystem, like the console companies might do. I don't see how the third parties had that incentive. And I don't know how loss-leader works if whatever anyone builds is just a commodity PC.
imtringued 8y ago
Wine and Proton are exactly the type of solution that I want. It works and it will get better every year. Linux users can run software without explicit vendor support. (software freedom 0 [0]) It doesn't burden corporations with expensive Linux support. Everyone is happy. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

partiallypro 8y ago

You mean, the project Google will cancel in 3 years? Yeah, I'm sure the two gaming behemoths that have been demoing the cloud working in conjunction with games for the past decade made their decision based on that. Microsoft demoed cloud compute doing physics calculations in games...what? 8 years ago? Sony already has a game streaming service. Microsoft is expected to make an announcement this E3 on the topic. Microsoft and Sony want to be relevant in a mobile world too...that's what this is all about. They both were shutout of the mobile piece of the pie in gaming, and they are coming back for it. Microsoft and Sony want their gaming ecosystem on mobile devices with the ability to cross-play with wired devices powered by their SaaS models, Xbox Live and Playstation Online. That market is much bigger than the market they've already captured.

cwyers 8y ago

How does Stadia advance Linux+Vulkan? The games run in a data center (and they're not running a standard Linux port, the presentations I saw made it sound like they were running basically another console port).

earenndil 8y ago
Still, the games will have a vulkan renderer and run on some form of linux, making an official port to the actual OS more likely.
- cwyers 8y ago
  The Xbox One has an NT kernel and DirectX as the graphics API. Stadia's use of Linux and Vulkan are probably about as helpful for a port to desktop Linux as an Xbox One game is for a Windows port.
  - acolumb 8y ago
    That analogy is the biggest thing to happen for Linux porting since Valve's Proton SDK - all future MS-funded Xbox One games do come to Windows (albeit as UWPs) and run great.
    - cwyers 8y ago
      I think "MS-funded" is doing a lot more of the work there than the kernel and graphics API are.
shmerl 8y ago
More gaming developers becoming familiar with Linux+Vulkan, more games ported to Stadia's Linux, all that means more potential releases for normal desktop Linux as well. Not all who target Stadia will clearly do it, but potential is surely better than without Stadia. So I see it as net positive for Linux gaming.

coffekaesque 8y ago

Very interesting talk about Stadia, latency, Linux, Vulkan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE > The inside story of how DOOM came to life on Stadia. id Software delivers a bird’s eye view of real-world Stadia development from conception to execution. Learn how high-performance games are made on Google’s new streaming platform. Recorded at GDC 2019.

duxup 8y ago

Do we feel like Google's efforts are a ... viable thing yet? Not really sure the Sony and MS thing are a reaction, and I'm not sure Google's thing is so much a thing. Some of Google's PR about how whatever it is they're doing is going to be all things (their statements have been strange IMO) could just be unfocused PR, or just an unfocused product.