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I wonder what would cost the Transport firm more: the time impact due to the low 5km/h speed or the costs of a human driver per truck? At was speed does the au

by adav 7y ago

I wonder what would cost the Transport firm more: the time impact due to the low 5km/h speed or the costs of a human driver per truck? At was speed does the automated system pay for itself if speed vs human is a reasonable trade off to consider? * Not considering the cost of doing the research and the cost of the self-driving truck.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
For OTR use the human driver costs you tons of money because the regulations that go with the human driver force the truck to be stationary a large fraction of the time. That's the market they're (eventually) targeting, not local delivery where the driver usually also has responsibilities having to do with the cargo. For the use case mentioned in the article the human driven option is going to be cheaper because the human driven truck goes faster. Going 10km/h results in basically the same throughput as having two trucks (yes I know there's other "per trip" overhead, that's not the point).
dredds 7y ago
Assuming the battery could be swapped out in a few minutes, then traveling at a 1/3 of the speed of a human driver displaces the cost of one driver on a regular shift of 8 hours. But on a 24/7/365 schedule (weekends and holidays too) even 1/4 the speed will cover wages. Reversing this, an Electric Truck with battery swap or on-road charging going 25km/h displaces the cost of 1 driver traveling 100km/h for equal distance.
- skohan 7y ago
  There was an electric car startup (now defunct) in Israel which built a network of "swap stations" so drivers of their cars could do long drives without spending hours at charging stations. The process was a bit like going through a carwash: it was completely automated and couldn't have taken more than 5-10 minutes.
  - swampthinker 7y ago
    Ah yes, Shai Agassi and Better Place right? There are some entertaining (if biased) post-mortem articles on that startup: https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-place https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-pl...
    - skohan 7y ago
      Yes Better Place! Obviously there were a lot of problems with that business, but my cousin was an early-adopter, and it was pretty fun from a user perspective while it lasted. In retrospect superchargers are at a much better place (no pun intended) in terms of the speed/complexity ratio.
ahje 7y ago
> the time impact due to the low 5km/h speed or the costs of a human driver per truck The route is fairly short so speed is probably not an issue: https://goo.gl/maps/9yRtQV88NEzDEcePA https://goo.gl/maps/9yRtQV88NEzDEcePA The route is described a bit better in a Swedish article I found: https://teknikensvarld.se/forarlos-lastbil-far-tillstand-att-kora-pa-allman-vag-i-sverige/ https://teknikensvarld.se/forarlos-lastbil-far-tillstand-att...
- notahacker 7y ago
  Looking at that route it looks like the sort of public road nobody would actually travel on unless they worked for DB Schenker at those facilities or were desperate to avoid the more direct and better marked roads across that industrial estate A giant leap for regulators, perhaps, since it's technically a public road, but looks like the standard move around company facility use case proposed for autonomous vehicles rather than anything comparable with transit haul or a taxi service.
  - ahje 7y ago
    > A giant leap for regulators Yes, this is the big one. The low speed and short distances involved are excellent arguments to allow it, and this opens up for more advanced projects in the future.
Tade0 7y ago
Truck drivers in the EU can't spend more than 90h driving during any given two weeks, and they usually go 80-100km/h, so the break-even point in terms of time alone here would be around 22-27km/h. My take is that at 30km/h they would make a very compelling case - since that's the minimum highway speed in some countries.
- skohan 7y ago
  Having automated trucks clogging one lane at 30km/h would be disastrous for PR, and I imagine it would have a very negative impact on traffic in general. As far as I'm aware, the safest and most efficient scenario for highway traffic is to have cars and trucks traveling at equal speeds.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Seems like having the vehicles catch a train if it's not a local journey would be better. Add a "package truck" wagon to the back of your train, the truck can book a place, RORO. Then continue on local roads at other end.
  - emj 7y ago
    You get better throughput with less speed in dense environments, see pedestrians and bicyclists. The problem with highways is that they are optimized for speed and sparse environments.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > My take is that at 30km/h they would make a very compelling case - since that's the minimum highway speed in some countries. In NL it is 70 kph, and if you go that fast you are a danger to other drivers. What country has 30 km/h as the minimum highway speed? And what do the highways there look like? Do people actually go that fast on the highways or is that the speed that won't get you ticketed if you drive on the shoulder with an SMV?
kalleboo 7y ago
It reads like the speed limit isn't due to the system but due to the permit they got from the government. Another article says the truck has a top speed of 85 km/h
- koala_man 7y ago
  This. There's no way anything technical is imposing this limit.

by adav 7y ago

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

For OTR use the human driver costs you tons of money because the regulations that go with the human driver force the truck to be stationary a large fraction of the time. That's the market they're (eventually) targeting, not local delivery where the driver usually also has responsibilities having to do with the cargo. For the use case mentioned in the article the human driven option is going to be cheaper because the human driven truck goes faster. Going 10km/h results in basically the same throughput as having two trucks (yes I know there's other "per trip" overhead, that's not the point).

dredds 7y ago

Assuming the battery could be swapped out in a few minutes, then traveling at a 1/3 of the speed of a human driver displaces the cost of one driver on a regular shift of 8 hours. But on a 24/7/365 schedule (weekends and holidays too) even 1/4 the speed will cover wages. Reversing this, an Electric Truck with battery swap or on-road charging going 25km/h displaces the cost of 1 driver traveling 100km/h for equal distance.

skohan 7y ago
There was an electric car startup (now defunct) in Israel which built a network of "swap stations" so drivers of their cars could do long drives without spending hours at charging stations. The process was a bit like going through a carwash: it was completely automated and couldn't have taken more than 5-10 minutes.
- swampthinker 7y ago
  Ah yes, Shai Agassi and Better Place right? There are some entertaining (if biased) post-mortem articles on that startup: https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-place https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-pl...
  - skohan 7y ago
    Yes Better Place! Obviously there were a lot of problems with that business, but my cousin was an early-adopter, and it was pretty fun from a user perspective while it lasted. In retrospect superchargers are at a much better place (no pun intended) in terms of the speed/complexity ratio.

ahje 7y ago

> the time impact due to the low 5km/h speed or the costs of a human driver per truck The route is fairly short so speed is probably not an issue: https://goo.gl/maps/9yRtQV88NEzDEcePA https://goo.gl/maps/9yRtQV88NEzDEcePA The route is described a bit better in a Swedish article I found: https://teknikensvarld.se/forarlos-lastbil-far-tillstand-att-kora-pa-allman-vag-i-sverige/ https://teknikensvarld.se/forarlos-lastbil-far-tillstand-att...

notahacker 7y ago
Looking at that route it looks like the sort of public road nobody would actually travel on unless they worked for DB Schenker at those facilities or were desperate to avoid the more direct and better marked roads across that industrial estate A giant leap for regulators, perhaps, since it's technically a public road, but looks like the standard move around company facility use case proposed for autonomous vehicles rather than anything comparable with transit haul or a taxi service.
- ahje 7y ago
  > A giant leap for regulators Yes, this is the big one. The low speed and short distances involved are excellent arguments to allow it, and this opens up for more advanced projects in the future.

Tade0 7y ago

Truck drivers in the EU can't spend more than 90h driving during any given two weeks, and they usually go 80-100km/h, so the break-even point in terms of time alone here would be around 22-27km/h. My take is that at 30km/h they would make a very compelling case - since that's the minimum highway speed in some countries.

skohan 7y ago
Having automated trucks clogging one lane at 30km/h would be disastrous for PR, and I imagine it would have a very negative impact on traffic in general. As far as I'm aware, the safest and most efficient scenario for highway traffic is to have cars and trucks traveling at equal speeds.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Seems like having the vehicles catch a train if it's not a local journey would be better. Add a "package truck" wagon to the back of your train, the truck can book a place, RORO. Then continue on local roads at other end.
- emj 7y ago
  You get better throughput with less speed in dense environments, see pedestrians and bicyclists. The problem with highways is that they are optimized for speed and sparse environments.
jacquesm 7y ago
> My take is that at 30km/h they would make a very compelling case - since that's the minimum highway speed in some countries. In NL it is 70 kph, and if you go that fast you are a danger to other drivers. What country has 30 km/h as the minimum highway speed? And what do the highways there look like? Do people actually go that fast on the highways or is that the speed that won't get you ticketed if you drive on the shoulder with an SMV?

kalleboo 7y ago

It reads like the speed limit isn't due to the system but due to the permit they got from the government. Another article says the truck has a top speed of 85 km/h

koala_man 7y ago
This. There's no way anything technical is imposing this limit.