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300km/h and 300km range means 1hr endurance. That means it probably cannot be used at all for paid flights in the USA. Reserves required are greater than that (
by dmitrygr 8y ago
300km/h and 300km range means 1hr endurance. That means it probably cannot be used at all for paid flights in the USA. Reserves required are greater than that (enough fuel to fly to destination, to alternate, and then 45 mins).
- _fizz_buzz_ 8y agoThose rules will be changed for electric VTOLs. There are already proposals in the working at the FAA as well at EASA.
- beenBoutIT 8y agoThe reserves are just as important for electrical VTOLs as they are for gas, when the power runs out the thing drops out of the sky. If anything the electric VTOLs need stricter requirements, not lower standards.
- vidarh 8y agoThe point being that it doesn't need a runway. There might be opposition to changing the rules, but rules intended for planes that needs to land at an airport makes little sense for something that can land on pretty much any small flat-ish surface.
- dmitrygr 8y agoPlease tell me. You're over center of LA. Where's that mythical flat area you'll land on? Oh, and how will you find it through the fog bank below you for miles...
- m463 8y agoI think float planes might be an untapped market.
- beenBoutIT 7y agoRight above propeller boats.
- vidarh 8y agoPlenty of roads, rooftops, parking lots and other flat areas. Looking at a satellite map I see mile after mile after mile of sufficiently large plat areas for an emergency. We're talking about a need for a circle smaller than a helicopter pad. And for a VTOL plane that can do a descent as slow as they've shown with their two seater, getting low enough to find them is far less of an issue. But the other thing I'd forgotten is that if it were to run out mid air or you can't find anywhere else: the two seater at least had a whole vehicle parachute, and it's built to be water resistant.
- _fizz_buzz_ 8y agoWell, that's your opinion (valid or not). However, the FAA as well as EASA are planning to lower these limits.
- Dylan16807 8y agoIt makes sense to have different requirements for VTOL. So what would it take to make that happen?
- dmitrygr 8y agoNot really. Since those have to do with weather and safety. VTOL won't save you in IMC. For example, helicopters have this requirement too IIRC
- Dylan16807 8y agoIsn't the worst case wait for a runway to open much longer than the wait for a flat spot to be clear? It doesn't make a ton of sense to use the same duration for both.
- imglorp 8y agoThe conventional reserve amounts account for diversions such as an airport being closed, or weather conditions at such as crosswinds exceeding the aircraft's capability to land at that airport. Another case is unexpected headwinds using up fuel, losing an engine, or going out over water and needing to turn back half way. If you're going to make VTOL exceptions, you still can't just punt and say put it down anywhere. What if you're over LA and there's no clear spot for miles? Over water? In instrument conditions (necessary for scheduled flights, because weather) and you can't see below you? Not saying we shouldn't amend the FARs for new aircraft types, but there's some thinking that needs to go into them.
- _Microft 8y agoBefore too many people waste their time because someone saved five seconds by not typing out an abbreviation: IMC seems to mean Instrument meteorological conditions
- hef19898 8y agoAirliners, yes. Airtaxis? Not sure about that. Also no idea what the requirements for helicopters is which are much closer to the Lilium jet than conventional passenger aircraft.
- dmitrygr 8y agoRequirement for ANY revenue generating flight in USA, basically (details omitted, but mostly so)
- hef19898 8y agoEASA at least is already working on it: https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/product-certification-consultations/proposed-special-condition-vtol https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/product-certific... The gist: max. 5 PAX, max 2,000 kg VTOl craft requires an own set of certification criteria as neither aircraft nor rotorcraft requirements are feasible. No idea about the current small rotorcraft certification requirements so.
- dmitrygr 8y ago"working on it" in aviation terms is a decade or two. Look up how long basicmed took. And that was an easy change.
- hef19898 8y agoSure, in a world where replacing a DIN norm by the successor EN one on the drawings can take 6 months, sure. But things are moving, which is good thing. And at least regulations are worked on in advance. That Airbus is also working on a similar project might help to speed things up with EASA as well. Just what that means for Lilium remains to be seen.
- larkeith 8y agoIt seems like they might be classified as powered-lift aircraft [1], would the same requirements apply? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_lift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_lift
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- simonvc 8y agoAlternate + 45 minutes is a rule designed for airplanes that need a runway to land. Helicopters typically have 10m fuel reserve rules because they can land just about anywhere. I'd expect VTOL electric rules to be similar.
- m463 8y agoWell, they are based in Germany. Europe has vastly different distances and fuel costs.