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ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are for

ITT: Office & IT workers who have no clue that this might not be just about them but the millions of factory workers, shop attendants, builders etc that are forced to work overtime without pay. And you better not say anything, because you are very replaceable. My personal experience? I've had to record my work times accurately for a few years, it was kinda annoying, but also freeing. Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Wanted to leave early or sleep in? no problem. Now I 'just kinda have to make sure I work my 40 hours' and always feel pressure to stay 9 till' 5 and do as little as possible outside of that.

maaaats 7y ago
It's a common theme here on HN when it comes to worker's rights and unions. Being a one-percenter where companies bend over backwards to cater to you, it's easy to dismiss these things.
- sweeeety 7y ago
  Not my experience in Europe though. My last two employers here constantly over promised (e.g.: unlimited vacations/parental leave, flexible hours, work from home, etc) and really really under delivered. I would rather have things set in stone first nowadays b/c the mindset of most managers here are still not ready for those.
  - maaaats 7y ago
    Unlimited PTO is more an American thing in my experience. And is never really unlimited as you will be judged when using it. In Europe it's common with 5+ weeks of vacation, which is also often mandatory by law to take.
    - sweeeety 7y ago
      well, what can I say, this company had a real problem following the union agreements and EU laws: no paid extra hours (on-call), no notice, no paternity leave according to local laws, etc. On the other hand, was really adamant to keep the 9:30 stand-up meeting for the sake of face time.
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
> Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Except that in many countries in Europe you aren't allowed to work on Sundays, and time tracking will be used to enforce it.
- toolslive 7y ago
  It's actually more liberal than that. You are allowed to work on Sunday, but it's more expensive for your employer as they need to compensate the discomfort. Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that). In the end, your employer probably will not let you work Sundays if it isn't worth it (to them).
  - Ntrails 7y ago
    > Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that) People have the weirdest views on how tax actually works. Taxes will eat the same proportion, or potentially marginally more - but unless a persons marginal rate is suddenly >50% you're obviously wrong. I would go as far as to suggest this is a non issue in the majority of cases where overtime is paid.
    - ovi256 7y ago
      Tax rate for Western EU workers is definitely above 50%, if you look at aggregate national income that finishes in government budgets (about 53%).
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - toolslive 7y ago
      In Belgium (where I live), taxation IS progressive (and very high), and it is a step function. You can even end up earning less if you exceeded some limit that causes your tax rate to jump up x%. Anyway, overtime, extra time, Sunday work can typically also be recuperated later (So you don't get paid but you get some time off) which is interesting too. It's not marginal neither. For example, Tax Liberation Day is July 27th in Belgium.
krageon 7y ago
> forced to work overtime without pay. This frequently happens in IT as well, with this actually put inside the contract.

maaaats 7y ago

It's a common theme here on HN when it comes to worker's rights and unions. Being a one-percenter where companies bend over backwards to cater to you, it's easy to dismiss these things.

sweeeety 7y ago
Not my experience in Europe though. My last two employers here constantly over promised (e.g.: unlimited vacations/parental leave, flexible hours, work from home, etc) and really really under delivered. I would rather have things set in stone first nowadays b/c the mindset of most managers here are still not ready for those.
- maaaats 7y ago
  Unlimited PTO is more an American thing in my experience. And is never really unlimited as you will be judged when using it. In Europe it's common with 5+ weeks of vacation, which is also often mandatory by law to take.
  - sweeeety 7y ago
    well, what can I say, this company had a real problem following the union agreements and EU laws: no paid extra hours (on-call), no notice, no paternity leave according to local laws, etc. On the other hand, was really adamant to keep the 9:30 stand-up meeting for the sake of face time.

tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago

> Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Except that in many countries in Europe you aren't allowed to work on Sundays, and time tracking will be used to enforce it.

toolslive 7y ago
It's actually more liberal than that. You are allowed to work on Sunday, but it's more expensive for your employer as they need to compensate the discomfort. Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that). In the end, your employer probably will not let you work Sundays if it isn't worth it (to them).
- Ntrails 7y ago
  > Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that) People have the weirdest views on how tax actually works. Taxes will eat the same proportion, or potentially marginally more - but unless a persons marginal rate is suddenly >50% you're obviously wrong. I would go as far as to suggest this is a non issue in the majority of cases where overtime is paid.
  - ovi256 7y ago
    Tax rate for Western EU workers is definitely above 50%, if you look at aggregate national income that finishes in government budgets (about 53%).
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - toolslive 7y ago
    In Belgium (where I live), taxation IS progressive (and very high), and it is a step function. You can even end up earning less if you exceeded some limit that causes your tax rate to jump up x%. Anyway, overtime, extra time, Sunday work can typically also be recuperated later (So you don't get paid but you get some time off) which is interesting too. It's not marginal neither. For example, Tax Liberation Day is July 27th in Belgium.

krageon 7y ago

> forced to work overtime without pay. This frequently happens in IT as well, with this actually put inside the contract.