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I find it interesting that the moderators were quick to remove the word Israel from the headline of the Whatsapp exploit article, but not China in this article.
by radmuzom 7y ago
I find it interesting that the moderators were quick to remove the word Israel from the headline of the Whatsapp exploit article, but not China in this article.
- mirimir 7y agoThe US blacklisted Huawei because it's closely tied to the Chinese government. So it's arguably relevant. But regarding the Whatsapp exploit, the association with Israel is arguably less relevant. The company is closely tied to Israel, but the US has a far less adversarial relationship with Israel than with China. Edit: I was just stating the obvious, I guess. Doesn't mean that I agree with it, however. Just sayin'.
- Taniwha 7y agoWhich was essentially the point of the gp comment .... Israel gets special treatment in the US ... even when a spinoff from their secret service is caught hacking people's phones worldwide
- mirimir 7y agoNot really. The comment was about HN policy, not US policy. And yes, Israel is the primary US proxy in the Middle East. And is widely supported in the US. So of course they get lots of slack. There's little doubt that the NSA has some role in this, or is at least OK with it.
- Udik 7y ago> Israel is the primary US proxy in the Middle East Frankly, it looks like the opposite. The US are the primary Israel's proxy in the West. Israel is causing the US much more trouble than gain in the Middle East.
- mirimir 7y agoThat's implausible. Not impossible, I guess. But it's hard to see a mechanism. I don't pretend to know what US goals really are in the Middle East. Maybe nobody does. So assessing trouble vs gain is iffy at best.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoThe US is a huge ally of Israel but for very strange reasons. For one, it has a lot of Jewish people. But the biggest pro-Israel force in the US is actually the minority (still more than there are Jewish people) of fundamentalist Christians who believe that Israel's existence helps the fulfillment of biblical prophecy of the new temple in Jerusalem and the Rapture. It might sound like I'm just being fantastical, but it's sadly very real: https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/16761540/jerusalem-israel-embassy-palestinians-trump-evangelicals https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/16761540/jerusalem-israel-emb...
- Udik 7y agoI've heard the Evangelical Christians mentioned very often in relation to their support for Israel. However I'm not fully convinced that they're the major force behind the US's unwavering support. For example, the article you linked states that only 53% of evangelicals actually support the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital: it's not an overwhelming majority. Meanwhile, 63% of all Americans oppose it, so it's overall an unpopular move: why was it made then? Also, the expert interviewed in the article says that "the gathering of all the Jews in exile to the Holy Land is a prerequisite for these events unfolding" (the end of times, etc.). But then, absurdity for absurdity, why don't the evangelicals call for the Jews to be expelled from the US, which would advance the evangelical cause even more? And more, to a Christian fundamentalist, a non-converted Jew is basically an infidel, so you'd expect them to be regarded with suspicion and contempt- which doesn't seem to happen. The Evangelicals then seem to entertain their beliefs only insofar that is beneficial to Israel. Isn't that strange?
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
- jlawson 7y agoAllied countries get treated with less suspicion than enemy countries - it's not complicated or unjustified. In one case, the company might be doing something wrong to consumers. In the other case, the enemy government might be making military advances against our whole country. If a Canadian or British company did the WhatsApp thing they'd get similar treatment. It's no that Israel is individually "special", it's that they're in the large group of ally countries to the US.
- Udik 7y ago> but the US has a far less adversarial relationship with Israel than with China Couldn't this be a consequence, rather than the cause, of the willingness to remove or mute anything that can put Israel in a less than positive light?
- mirimir 7y agoIt's both. I used to be angry about Israel, but no longer see the point of it. Being critical of Israel is political suicide in the US. That's just how it is. See The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (2007). But be careful about discussing it.
- Udik 7y ago> Being critical of Israel is political suicide in the US. That's just how it is. I know. But it is how it is because of a pervasive propaganda on one side, and the fear of speaking up on the other. It can be changed.
- mirimir 7y agoIt's not just the propaganda. Or rather, it's the six decades of propaganda. I used to keep a copy of that book in my living room. And it almost precipitated a riot among dinner guests. Indeed, fear of career suicide was a primary reason for going ~anonymous on the Internet. I can't imagine what it would take to change it.
- dgregd 7y agoSo war with Iran is inevitable? Even if majority of Americans don't support it?
- NotSammyHagar 7y agoIt's not inevitable. In the Iraq war a few senators and reps voted against it. Now we should have tremendous better sense of evidence can be faked, the impact in America and other countries. Most? A lot? Of Dems would vote against war, a few Republicans. This is just John Bolton, Trump not paying attention. It's terrifying. What if he lets some provication kick it off. Really the same thing could happen with China or Russia. I never thought I'd feel so sad about the state of my country. But you know, 1938 looked a lot worse. Germany, Japan, great depression.
- bildung 7y ago> The US blacklisted Huawei because it's closely tied to the Chinese government. Has that actually been proven?
- highhedgehog 7y agoMaybe not proven, but there are definetly elements that go in that direction. https://www.npr.org/2018/12/07/674467994/huawei-and-the-chinese-government?t=1557991120418 https://www.npr.org/2018/12/07/674467994/huawei-and-the-chin...
- chrischen 7y agoEvery company is under the jurisdiction of the local government. US companies have ties to the US government, as do Chinese companies with China. This is at least partially why China blocked facebook (foreign influenced social media), have access to Windows source code, etc.
- HNthrow22 7y agowhat I found interesting was how quickly Hn jumped to action (contacting investors, pension funds) relating to NGO on a completely unsubstantiated report. "May have been" was the quote from that article. I can't recall the last time I've ever seen upvoted Hn comments outraged enough to contact investors let alone from an unconfirmed report.
- Hydraulix989 7y agoApples and oranges: WhatsApp isn't an Israel-based company.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- thereare5lights 7y agoInteresting but not surprising.
- writepub 7y agoYou can take China out of the headline, but you can never take China out of Huawei, which literally translates to "Chinese excellence". Also, this comment is likely an indicator of a left-lean in geo politics, that tends to paint Israel as an aggressor, and attributes any action stemming from the country, even from private individuals or companies, to Mossad and the state. Note also that left leaning politics, especially from South Asia, is very sympathetic to communist regimes, and will go to lengths citing narratives of plausible deniability in defense of China/Huawei.
- radmuzom 7y agoArguably, US (and to a lesser extent Israel) have committed or supported far more international human rights abuses, war crimes and terrorism than any other modern country. So yes, we are not sympathetic to mindless anti-China propaganda even though we may not fully support "communist regimes" too.
- krageon 7y ago> Note also that left leaning politics Politics in general is a dirty game. We don't need to oversimplify the landscape into some sort of spurious left/right divide in order to make a credible claim that there is a problematic prevailing narrative.
- mcv 7y ago> "Note also that left leaning politics, especially from South Asia, is very sympathetic to communist regimes" I wonder why they would be; there's nothing left-wing about China. They have sky-rocketing inequality and a poor working class working excessive hours under harsh conditions. China is highly capitalist, but under a totalitarian government. Nothing to admire about from a left-wing point of view.
- writepub 7y agoHeroes sold as socialist in the US are typically communist: Marx, Stalin, Lennin, Mao, Pol pot, ... The new wave of socialism in the US cherry picks instances of the ideology that is somewhat palatable with the West's notion of individual freedom. Denmark and Norway are sold as socialist meccas, but equally socialist China, Russia and Venezuela are conveniently ignored. The truth is that communism is a superset of socialism, and socialism in general tends to put the collective above the individual, often time at the cost of civil liberties.
- dang 7y ago"Quick" is inaccurate—the story had been at the top of the front page for hours. I did that because the thread was breaking into off-topic flamewars about Israel vs. Palestine and whether (lord help us) "Hacker News hates Jews". Rummaging in the big bag of tricks for a flamewar de-escalator, that was the one that came out. The intention wasn't about Israel, merely to nudge the thread back within the site guidelines. And I think it helped do that, though of course then the flames got directed at moderators for supposedly loving/hating Israel and so on. Now that you mention it, though, there's no need to say "China's Huawei" in the title above. I've shortened it.