5 ms·

I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that i

by bargl 7y ago

I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that it calls out the hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control, but it also seems like an overly broad attack. What does someone who both believes gun control is necessary and wants to send "thoughts and prayers" do? I think the idea of gun control is a target at a solution while thoughts and prayers are meant to console the individual. Anyway, it's just something I found super annoying. I had someone who I know lost a loved one (not due to guns) and I struggled with what to say. It's a simple thing, but I realized I didn't know how to attempt to console someone anymore.

lazyasciiart 7y ago
The attack is against high profile politicians who regularly act to block or dismiss gun control measures, but also reliably jump to announce that they are sending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims of gun attacks. I don't think this would be relevant in the case of an individual interaction. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-florida-school-shooting-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-flori...
sooper 7y ago
My (non-US) understanding of the outrage is that they feel that the person saying it is not actually going to actually keep the victims in their thoughts and prayers...
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  Even if they did, what good would it do? Unless your a friend or immediate family member there is sweet fuck all you can do to console someone in a time of grief.
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
It isn't the "thoughts and prayers" part by itself, it is the "thoughts and prayers" offered by politicians and then absolutely nothing else. Even Christians can find it hypocritical: > "Prayer that doesn't lead to concrete action toward our brothers is a fruitless and incomplete prayer. [...] Prayer and action must always be profoundly united" - Pope Francis. (grabbed from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_and_prayers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_and_prayers) Otherwise, that to many people the phrase has become synonymous with willful inaction is just collateral damage. It doesn't even call out the hypocrisy of christians that don't support gun control. They can believe in other ways forward, like arming all kids with guns and having them practice lots of active shooter drills, or whatever, but it is the "it is not that bad, let's not worry about it" attitude that makes people angry. The original comment I was replying to talked about a "having a national dialogue on gun control", which simply hasn't happened.
- bargl 7y ago
  I want to clarify something, I'm not attacking you or your comment. I'm really asking for clarity. I appreciate what you've stated. It's funny, we assume everyone uses the same definition of a phrase or slogan as we do and just by reading through the comments on this I see that's not the case.
TimTheTinker 7y ago
> hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control I don't see how the two equate to hypocrisy. A friend of mine (a Christian) is strongly opposed to gun control. He has a concealed carry license and carries everywhere, because he wants to have the means to protect himself and his loved ones from an active shooter, if necessary. He cites "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," and feels personally affronted by gun control legislation. That, and he prays regularly for others. I for one would not accuse him of hypocrisy on that basis.
- free652 7y ago
  If there are no guns then outlaws wouldn't have them.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    That's true, but it's a bit late for that, at least in the US.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Our gun industry produces more than 11 million guns a year. Sure, many of those wind up in Mexico and Central America via the drug trade, but that's still a lot of supply being sustained through the system. Guns wear out, simply cutting production would do a lot to reduce the number of guns in the system (outlaw or not).
      - XaoDaoCaoCao 7y ago
        Even with our vast gun supply, the US one of the safest nations on Earth. Half of our homicides are committed by a particular minority of the population which, when removed from the picture, makes it really stark how "well behaved" a majority of Americans are in comparison to the number of guns.
        dang 7y ago
rayiner 7y ago
Or what about people who feel bad that these things happen, but believe it’s the cost of living in a free society? Every system has trade offs. You can be sympathetic about the system having downsides while still believing that the system is better than the alternatives. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about it. To use a less charged example: developers might feel bad for novice users who get computer viruses on Windows or Mac OS. They might even help people out. And that’s entirely consistent with those sample people opposing locking down Windows and MacOS like iOS in the name of security.

by bargl 7y ago

lazyasciiart 7y ago

The attack is against high profile politicians who regularly act to block or dismiss gun control measures, but also reliably jump to announce that they are sending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims of gun attacks. I don't think this would be relevant in the case of an individual interaction. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-florida-school-shooting-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-flori...

sooper 7y ago

My (non-US) understanding of the outrage is that they feel that the person saying it is not actually going to actually keep the victims in their thoughts and prayers...

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
Even if they did, what good would it do? Unless your a friend or immediate family member there is sweet fuck all you can do to console someone in a time of grief.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

It isn't the "thoughts and prayers" part by itself, it is the "thoughts and prayers" offered by politicians and then absolutely nothing else. Even Christians can find it hypocritical: > "Prayer that doesn't lead to concrete action toward our brothers is a fruitless and incomplete prayer. [...] Prayer and action must always be profoundly united" - Pope Francis. (grabbed from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_and_prayers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_and_prayers) Otherwise, that to many people the phrase has become synonymous with willful inaction is just collateral damage. It doesn't even call out the hypocrisy of christians that don't support gun control. They can believe in other ways forward, like arming all kids with guns and having them practice lots of active shooter drills, or whatever, but it is the "it is not that bad, let's not worry about it" attitude that makes people angry. The original comment I was replying to talked about a "having a national dialogue on gun control", which simply hasn't happened.

bargl 7y ago
I want to clarify something, I'm not attacking you or your comment. I'm really asking for clarity. I appreciate what you've stated. It's funny, we assume everyone uses the same definition of a phrase or slogan as we do and just by reading through the comments on this I see that's not the case.

TimTheTinker 7y ago

> hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control I don't see how the two equate to hypocrisy. A friend of mine (a Christian) is strongly opposed to gun control. He has a concealed carry license and carries everywhere, because he wants to have the means to protect himself and his loved ones from an active shooter, if necessary. He cites "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," and feels personally affronted by gun control legislation. That, and he prays regularly for others. I for one would not accuse him of hypocrisy on that basis.

free652 7y ago
If there are no guns then outlaws wouldn't have them.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  That's true, but it's a bit late for that, at least in the US.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Our gun industry produces more than 11 million guns a year. Sure, many of those wind up in Mexico and Central America via the drug trade, but that's still a lot of supply being sustained through the system. Guns wear out, simply cutting production would do a lot to reduce the number of guns in the system (outlaw or not).
    - XaoDaoCaoCao 7y ago
      Even with our vast gun supply, the US one of the safest nations on Earth. Half of our homicides are committed by a particular minority of the population which, when removed from the picture, makes it really stark how "well behaved" a majority of Americans are in comparison to the number of guns.
      - dang 7y ago

rayiner 7y ago

Or what about people who feel bad that these things happen, but believe it’s the cost of living in a free society? Every system has trade offs. You can be sympathetic about the system having downsides while still believing that the system is better than the alternatives. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about it. To use a less charged example: developers might feel bad for novice users who get computer viruses on Windows or Mac OS. They might even help people out. And that’s entirely consistent with those sample people opposing locking down Windows and MacOS like iOS in the name of security.