15 ms·

You're right - anything that provokes fear or outrage gets instant attention. Everything else doesn't. North Korea imprisoning a single idiot American who cros

by umvi 8y ago

You're right - anything that provokes fear or outrage gets instant attention. Everything else doesn't. North Korea imprisoning a single idiot American who crossed the border = national dialogue because it's outrageous School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control because it's outrageous. DUI accident that kills a family of 5 = small blurb in local news because it's not outrageous (even if it should be). Thousands of people dying from obesity-related health issues = crickets because it is not outrageous.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
TimTheTinker 8y ago
Millions of children dying in the womb = crickets. (or hot debate, depending on your country) I know that's a controversial issue. No offense intended toward any individuals - but this is my viewpoint.
- unknownkadath 8y ago
  See, here's the thing: a neural tube with the same number of neurons as C. elegans isn't the same thing as a human being. I can see how some folks can get confused, though.
  - hyperdunc 8y ago
    Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.
    - unknownkadath 8y ago
      Why not? So what?
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        I think the commenter is just pointing out a potential fallacy -- comparing things that are fundamentally different to force a conclusion that is nonsensical.
        unknownkadath 8y ago
        Like how you compare a live woman with a history and thoughts and dreams with a few micrograms of cells that a body may or may not spontaneosly eject via well-characterized biological processes?
    - justasitsounds 8y ago
      Well, if we're talking about potential, most pro-lifers make exceptions for cases of rape or incest. However, if it's one's "sincerely held belief" that a ball of cells is a human because it has the potential to become a conscious human being then such exceptions are the equivalent to killing an adult who's only crime is to have been conceived as a result of rape or incest. Personally I am pro-choice, but if you are really pro-life you cannot morally allow for exceptions in the case of rape or incest- unless of course your stated agenda isn't the same as your real agenda
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        I’m pro-life, and I think killing an unborn baby for any reason is abhorrent — as you said, it’s the same as murdering an adult. (Although there are cases where the mother’s life is in danger - but that’s always about “who to save” in the middle of a surgery or something - that’s different.) I don’t know who you’ve heard that viewpoint from (abortion is wrong except in cases of rape/invest) but I don’t believe that and I don’t know anyone who does. I think it appears as a political concession and rarely (if ever) as a sincerely held belief.
        unknownkadath 8y ago
        A neural tube isn't a baby.
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        A human zygote is a person, and so is everything that follows. From the moment of fertilization, there is a single developmental progression of a single organism. There isn't any other meaningful scientific or logical distinction that can be made. Before fertilization, you have the gametes from two separate organisms. Afterwards, there is a new, unique organism (a human being) who has a separate identify. And yes, that means I think common in-vitro fertilization practices (including making multiple zygotes and throwing some out) are morally wrong and equivalent to abortion. If anyone disagrees, I contend it's because of the moral implications, not any lack of soundness in the scientific or logical arguments.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines by taking a thread further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative some other comment was. TimTheTinker shouldn't have gone there, but you fed it with at least 10 flamewar comments, and that's egregious. Regardless of strongly you feel about choice, nothing good could possibly come out of what you did here, and meanwhile it damages the commons, which is already fragile. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- whyaduck 8y ago
  There's one thing I guarantee you'll never find in a womb: a child.
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    This would be laughable if the moral implications weren’t so dire.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't do this here, regardless of whether someone else started it.
- dang 8y ago
  "Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    My apologies. I shouldn't have done this.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
> School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control because it's outrageous. I'm sorry, what country is this? The one I live in its just "thoughts and prayers" when that happens.
- bargl 8y ago
  I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that it calls out the hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control, but it also seems like an overly broad attack. What does someone who both believes gun control is necessary and wants to send "thoughts and prayers" do? I think the idea of gun control is a target at a solution while thoughts and prayers are meant to console the individual. Anyway, it's just something I found super annoying. I had someone who I know lost a loved one (not due to guns) and I struggled with what to say. It's a simple thing, but I realized I didn't know how to attempt to console someone anymore.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    The attack is against high profile politicians who regularly act to block or dismiss gun control measures, but also reliably jump to announce that they are sending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims of gun attacks. I don't think this would be relevant in the case of an individual interaction. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-florida-school-shooting-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-flori...
  - sooper 8y ago
    My (non-US) understanding of the outrage is that they feel that the person saying it is not actually going to actually keep the victims in their thoughts and prayers...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      Even if they did, what good would it do? Unless your a friend or immediate family member there is sweet fuck all you can do to console someone in a time of grief.
sasaf5 8y ago
I felt that a similar thing happened with those thai kids stuck in that cave. An international effort was made to rescue them. What if this year one of them is dying because their parents can't afford healthcare? Would that create an international effort? At the same time, I too felt compelled to help them when they were stuck...
Cogito 8y ago
I don't think it's as much an outrage thing as it is a control thing. Sure, cars are unsafe and thousands of people die on the roads every year, but I am a good driver and I won't have a bad accident like that. If I do it's my own fault. Yes, eating too much is bad for me but it's my own fault - I could just eat less. (side note - if I believe it would be my fault if I die of something, I'm going to believe if you die of that thing it's your fault) Kids getting shot at school - not their fault and there is nothing they could do to avoid it. Being blown up by a terrorist's bomb? Nothing you could do as an individual to avoid it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
dang 8y ago
This seems to be the pivot point at which the thread went into flamewar. I'm sure you didn't intend to cause a wildfire, but combining inflammatory material with inflammatory rhetoric has that effect. So would you please not post like this to HN in the future? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19923668 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19923668 and marked it off topic.

by umvi 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

TimTheTinker 8y ago

Millions of children dying in the womb = crickets. (or hot debate, depending on your country) I know that's a controversial issue. No offense intended toward any individuals - but this is my viewpoint.

unknownkadath 8y ago
See, here's the thing: a neural tube with the same number of neurons as C. elegans isn't the same thing as a human being. I can see how some folks can get confused, though.
- hyperdunc 8y ago
  Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.
  - unknownkadath 8y ago
    Why not? So what?
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      I think the commenter is just pointing out a potential fallacy -- comparing things that are fundamentally different to force a conclusion that is nonsensical.
      - unknownkadath 8y ago
        Like how you compare a live woman with a history and thoughts and dreams with a few micrograms of cells that a body may or may not spontaneosly eject via well-characterized biological processes?
  - justasitsounds 8y ago
    Well, if we're talking about potential, most pro-lifers make exceptions for cases of rape or incest. However, if it's one's "sincerely held belief" that a ball of cells is a human because it has the potential to become a conscious human being then such exceptions are the equivalent to killing an adult who's only crime is to have been conceived as a result of rape or incest. Personally I am pro-choice, but if you are really pro-life you cannot morally allow for exceptions in the case of rape or incest- unless of course your stated agenda isn't the same as your real agenda
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      I’m pro-life, and I think killing an unborn baby for any reason is abhorrent — as you said, it’s the same as murdering an adult. (Although there are cases where the mother’s life is in danger - but that’s always about “who to save” in the middle of a surgery or something - that’s different.) I don’t know who you’ve heard that viewpoint from (abortion is wrong except in cases of rape/invest) but I don’t believe that and I don’t know anyone who does. I think it appears as a political concession and rarely (if ever) as a sincerely held belief.
      - unknownkadath 8y ago
        A neural tube isn't a baby.
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        A human zygote is a person, and so is everything that follows. From the moment of fertilization, there is a single developmental progression of a single organism. There isn't any other meaningful scientific or logical distinction that can be made. Before fertilization, you have the gametes from two separate organisms. Afterwards, there is a new, unique organism (a human being) who has a separate identify. And yes, that means I think common in-vitro fertilization practices (including making multiple zygotes and throwing some out) are morally wrong and equivalent to abortion. If anyone disagrees, I contend it's because of the moral implications, not any lack of soundness in the scientific or logical arguments.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines by taking a thread further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative some other comment was. TimTheTinker shouldn't have gone there, but you fed it with at least 10 flamewar comments, and that's egregious. Regardless of strongly you feel about choice, nothing good could possibly come out of what you did here, and meanwhile it damages the commons, which is already fragile. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
whyaduck 8y ago
There's one thing I guarantee you'll never find in a womb: a child.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  This would be laughable if the moral implications weren’t so dire.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't do this here, regardless of whether someone else started it.
dang 8y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  My apologies. I shouldn't have done this.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

> School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control because it's outrageous. I'm sorry, what country is this? The one I live in its just "thoughts and prayers" when that happens.

bargl 8y ago
I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that it calls out the hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control, but it also seems like an overly broad attack. What does someone who both believes gun control is necessary and wants to send "thoughts and prayers" do? I think the idea of gun control is a target at a solution while thoughts and prayers are meant to console the individual. Anyway, it's just something I found super annoying. I had someone who I know lost a loved one (not due to guns) and I struggled with what to say. It's a simple thing, but I realized I didn't know how to attempt to console someone anymore.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  The attack is against high profile politicians who regularly act to block or dismiss gun control measures, but also reliably jump to announce that they are sending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims of gun attacks. I don't think this would be relevant in the case of an individual interaction. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-florida-school-shooting-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/thoughts-and-prayers-flori...
- sooper 8y ago
  My (non-US) understanding of the outrage is that they feel that the person saying it is not actually going to actually keep the victims in their thoughts and prayers...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    Even if they did, what good would it do? Unless your a friend or immediate family member there is sweet fuck all you can do to console someone in a time of grief.

sasaf5 8y ago

I felt that a similar thing happened with those thai kids stuck in that cave. An international effort was made to rescue them. What if this year one of them is dying because their parents can't afford healthcare? Would that create an international effort? At the same time, I too felt compelled to help them when they were stuck...

Cogito 8y ago

I don't think it's as much an outrage thing as it is a control thing. Sure, cars are unsafe and thousands of people die on the roads every year, but I am a good driver and I won't have a bad accident like that. If I do it's my own fault. Yes, eating too much is bad for me but it's my own fault - I could just eat less. (side note - if I believe it would be my fault if I die of something, I'm going to believe if you die of that thing it's your fault) Kids getting shot at school - not their fault and there is nothing they could do to avoid it. Being blown up by a terrorist's bomb? Nothing you could do as an individual to avoid it.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

dang 8y ago

This seems to be the pivot point at which the thread went into flamewar. I'm sure you didn't intend to cause a wildfire, but combining inflammatory material with inflammatory rhetoric has that effect. So would you please not post like this to HN in the future? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19923668 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19923668 and marked it off topic.