16 ms·
LED light can damage eyes, French health authority warns
- benbojangles 7y agoBlue Spectrum light could be a big factor towards many health problems in the upper northern hemisphere (And probably lower southern), depression, macular retinopathy, migranes, tinnitus, affected autonomic function, CTE, post concussion syndrome - all affected by blue light, winter sun, white/blue LEDS, Car headlamps.
- CuriousSkeptic 7y agoI would be interested to read more about this. Do you have some sources for those claims one could read?
- rohan1024 7y agoWhy do you say that it will only affect particular regions? Do you mean people around equator are not that much affected by blue light?
- maxnoe 7y agoNot as much exposed due to more natural light
- benbojangles 7y agoI'm referring to the higher levels of blue spectrum light in the outer hemisphere compared to more red spectrum nearer to equatorial
- leoedin 7y agoThe sun is more blue spectrum than any LED. The only way the northern hemisphere would have problems with too much blue light (compared to the equator) is if it was in midsummer, when there's a lot of daylight. Whatever blue light our LEDs produce indoors in winter is a fraction of that produced by the sun.
- hollander 7y agoI hate the bright white-blue headlights. They stand out so much, it's annoying to see them. Luckily I have a pair of Polaroid yellow night clipons. They do excellent work in the car in the evening, and many times during daytime as well.
- fouronnes3 7y agomaybe my esp8266 2500 lumens led strip alarm clock wasn't such a good idea :O
- DoctorOW 7y ago> The report distinguished between acute exposure of high-intensity LED light, and "chronic exposure" to lower intensity sources. I can't say I'm convinced that LEDs are a hazard. This study doesn't really say anything new. Cooler/brighter lights are more similar to daylight. Staring into the sun is bad for you, emulating sunlight at night keeps you up. > ANSES recommended buying "warm white" LED lighting This line shows LEDs aren't even really the hazard. It's akin to saying a substance was found that prevents cancer and the article saying that its sunscreen.
- CuriousSkeptic 7y agoWarm white refers to some particular average. But how do you find led’s that don’t hide a spike of blue light in that average? Most places where I run into led-lights don’t advertise the spectral distribution.
- hoytech 7y agoThis is a really fun and easy experiment you might like: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html
- marak830 7y agoOh that's awesome! I have a colleague writing a semester on science projects for kids, this is definitely going to fit in with that!
- peatmoss 7y agoMy understanding is that LEDs have a very specific, peaky distribution. Heating a wire results in a wide distribution of color temps, but solid state lighting is a really narrow band of color. I have a photo panel that needs two separate color LEDs to produce a balanced feeling color temp.
- _ph_ 7y agoAs I wrote (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19919819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19919819) LEDs usually have a single color: blue. However the resulting spectrum generated by the phosphor can have almost any shape, some high-quality LEDs even have a pretty perfect black body spectrum without a blue line. Of course they are more expensive and also less efficient.
- gppk 7y agoLittle unsure how this is new findings: > "exposure to an intense and powerful [LED] light is 'photo-toxic' and can lead to irreversible loss of retinal cells and diminished sharpness of vision," This is the reason we have light and laser safety standards to ensure that people aren't being exposed to dangerous levels of light...
- seanalltogether 7y agoThe article specifically calls out LED filament bulbs, but those bulbs aren't designed to actually output blue light to the user, they output the light that the phosphor coating on top should output, which is usually yellowish at 2800K. Are they talking specifically about LED bulbs and displays that still use separate RGB LEDs?
- ricardobeat 7y agoAFAIK that’s always the case - a “white” LED is simply a blue diode + phosphor. They can still output a lot more blue light than an incandescent lamp, even when the resulting color temperature appears to be the same.
- Itsdijital 7y agoWarm white LEDs still have about 30% of the blue light emission that cool white LEDs have. I really think the article is talking about cool white primarily though.
- 6DM 7y agoDoes this mean we can finally outlaw blue headlights? (Note: I am joking, but I wish it were true.)
- workingpatrick 7y agoAFAIK, most of the actually 'blue' headlights are not street legal. A Product of cheap aftermarket "HID Kits" or cheap XENON bulbs. Also, at least in Texas, basically any modification to your OEM headlights is verboten.
- hnick 7y agoAre they actually 'blue'? I ask because of your quotes. I heard before that we perceive slightly yellow light as white (because of the sun) and these 'blue' lights are really pure white but our perception shifts it.
- Tempest1981 7y agoThey have a color temperature of 6500k (or 8000k? or higher?), which is a very blue tint of white.
- derefr 7y agoHow “intense and powerful” are we talking? Does this mean that 30mins daily exposure to an LED-based [10000lm] light-therapy lamp is a bad idea (compared to a non-LED-based light-therapy lamp)?
- _ph_ 7y agoMost (but not all) white LEDs have a specific property: the LED itself is creating pure blue light. To create the appeareance of white light, a part of the blue light is then converted to wavelengths in the green-red region via a phosphor coating. But, especially in cheaper configurations, it still leaves a pronounced blue emission line shaping the spectrum like this: 0 0 00000 0 00000000000 0000000000000000 With some coatings, the blue line completely vanishes, creating a light distribution close to an incandescent lamp, but others have a very pronounced line. In the light (sorry) of the report, it sounds reasonable to require a certain minimum "spectrum quality" for lightbulbs beyond a certain power output.
- seanalltogether 7y agoIs there a way to know which bulbs have this. Can you use CRI rating or something as a clue?
- _ph_ 7y agoThe CRI rating should be a good start. The lower the color temperature of the LED is, the less of a blue peak you should have. But the best would be to have a proper spectrum.
- mopsi 7y agoHow does this look like to you? https://i.imgur.com/rQaopcS.png https://i.imgur.com/rQaopcS.png Taken from Philips A60 leaflet.
- _ph_ 7y agoThis looks like a very good spectrum - pretty much like the best "warm" LEDs you can get. The blue peak is almost gone - or you can discuss whether it has a peak or a small weakness in the green-blue area.
- mrmondo 7y agoLED lighting panels in our office is so bad it looks as if there is a constant haze or fog in the office. A number of people in the office were complaining of visual fatigue and a hazing effecting especially after working 3+ hours, additionally multiple people had noted that colours seemed diluted or ‘dulled’. The light spectrum seems to be missing parts of the visible light spectrum, to test this I acquired and installed high CRI lights and the area in inch I installed them lead to people satin to that they felt less sleep, more alert and more comfortable - of course these are all subjective results. Subjective TLDR; LED lighting isn’t inherently bad IMO, but bad LED lighting is bad.
- timcederman 7y agoSome of the issues (including the visual hazing) could be exacerbated by poor indoor air quality.
- clarry 7y agoGlad to know it can be solved by installing a light.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoIt sounds like your LED lighting might have a poor colour rendering index? It's a measure of how accurately colours can be perceived under particular light. The best — well, the reference — light source is the sun. (I only know about this concept from Technology Connections's videos on high-pressure sodium lights.)
- mrmondo 7y agoYes it does, I ordered 4x high CRI LED bulbs from https://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting.html https://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting.html, I placed them around my teams working pod in cheap $10 desk lamps and they work a treat, very noticeable difference in our pod / cubical to the rest of the office.
- Causality1 7y agoA lot of their claims are unscientific. >Teenagers' lenses aren't fully crystallized so blue light is more prone to disrupt their sleep patterns
- samsolomon 7y agoInteresting that the color of the light appears to be the issue here. When researching LED bulbs I read a ton of complaints about the flickering causing people headaches. It's hasn't caused me any issues though. If you're curious about the flicker, it's visible by filming an LED bulb at 1/8 speed. I posted some videos here a while back. https://productdork.com/t/led-lightbulb-recommendations/272/4 https://productdork.com/t/led-lightbulb-recommendations/272/...
- Tempest1981 7y agoCertain cars have taillights that flicker like crazy. What percentage of people are sensitive to this? The car makers don't seem to care.
- davidy123 7y agoRegardless of the ultimate veracity of this (health guidance is …), there's still a benefit. So many shops have switched to selling "LED lighting," without distinguishing the quality. So there is a lot of harsh lighting being sold, that lasts a long time, which is a shame because colour temperature really does have a big effect. I was subjected to this in a lighting shop, where I was requesting fixtures that took a standard bulb, so I could plug in my own LED bulbs with controllable colour temperature, but the salesperson just couldn't see how that was better than their integrated LED systems.
- UI_at_80x24 7y agoAC driven vs DC driven. The 'quality' of light that is supplied from a DC power source is superior to that from a rectified AC source. Cheap rectifiers are the scourge and cancer of this lighting tech. While not discounting the affect of the blue light + phosphor even 'cheap' LED's provide a better light output when DC driven. Note: I can see/sense LED flicker (florescent tubes [or ballasts] nearing their end-of-life, and CFL's too.) So I am very sensitive to it. I also LOVE super-bright high kelvin 'cool/cold' 6500K+ lights in my home. My wife complains that it's like being in an operating room. I wonder how much of the blue-light dislike/distrust is based on a biological leaning towards a preference to carbon-rich fire/flame orange-hue's. i.e. a campfire or candle vs incandescent light vs halogen vs florescent vs LEDs on a scale of like to hate.
- kitsunesoba 7y agoBlue/white fluorescent or LED lights drive me crazy in a home setting. If I could replace the one in my apartment’s kitchen I would. Their brightness is fine but their coldness keeps me on edge somehow.
- UI_at_80x24 7y agoIt really is interesting how light affects us like that. I suffer from a congenital cornea disease and am slowly going blind until I get a transplant. I've often wondered if that's how/why I like the lights the way I do. They always feel "cheery" to me. It brightens my mood.
- stordoff 7y ago> I also LOVE super-bright high kelvin 'cool/cold' 6500K+ lights in my home. My wife complains that it's like being in an operating room. I love colour-changing bulbs for this. 5000K+ during the day, ~2800K at night.
- korm 7y agoFrom my research and experience the operating room effect is largely due to bad color rendering with most (cheap) LEDs. Good artwork/video/photo lighting with LEDs is very expensive and bought from specialized shops or the manufacturer, but it's the closest I've found to true sunlight. If you'd like recommendations I like the Yugi strips.
- rconti 7y agoUnrelated, because IR is on the other side of the visible spectrum from blue light, but I'm convinced some day we'll find that IR is damaging to the eye. Every time I see those creepy glowing green eyes coming from the baby's room on friends' and relatives' baby monitors, I just shudder. I can't see blasting an infant with invisible light for no good reason.
- anonuser123456 7y agoThe sun emits IR.
- rconti 7y ago... and blue light?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lolc 7y agoDoes infrared photography[0] creep you out too? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography
- ajuc 7y agoI don't know about the damage to eyes, but I can confirm problem with not getting "sleepy feeling" while using a computer late at night. And the solutions for me was a software that gradually changes the color scheme of the operating system to be more red and less blue. I'm using it since almost a year and it significantly helped with going to sleep earlier. I simply get sleepy at 22-23, even when doing stuff on a computer. Before installing the software I could sit for hours and notice it's already 02:00 and I'm not sleepy, just tired.
- cbwalker 7y agoPraise our caring European governments for banning incandescent light bulbs for the benefit of Philips and Osram while you can still burn as many liters of Diesel (together with noise pollution) as you please.
- tzs 7y agoOne thing I never see mentioned when it comes to blue light and its effect on circadian rhythms is whether it is the absolute level of blue light that matters, or the relative amount compared to other concurrent light, or the relative amount compared to some earlier time such as the peak blue level over the last day. It is relevant for figuring out strategies to avoid having blue light mess with your sleep. If it is an absolute level, then you either need to keep light sources low enough at night so that they can't have a blue component that is too high, or you need to find out the spectrum of the light and figure out the maximum level you can set the source to so that the blue won't be too high. If it is just the relative amount compared to concurrent light, then as long as you use lights that have an acceptable spectrum you should be able set these as bright as you want without messing up your sleep. If it is relative to something like the peak for the day, then there is a possibility that instead of turning down blue at night you could turn it up during the day to raise that peak to give you more blue leeway at night.
- DtnB 7y agoI actually looked into this recently and found some articles(which I have since lost) that explained that it would appear that the delta between blue light in the morning and at night is the mechanism by which our circadian rhythm seems to work. However, working with the idea that blue light is photo toxic, it is most likely better to reduce your blue light at night rather than increase it in the morning. I wanted to do this experiment with dosing myself with blue light in the morning but I abandoned that after seeing research on photo toxicity Perhaps establishing a morning habit of going and standing in front of an east facing window might be a worthy experiment?
- jwr 7y agoI've been working on designing my lighting system for home. I find these reports annoying: without specifics, it's really just FUD. I am looking at datasheets for various LEDs, comparing CRIs and spectral distributions and I know already that my lights are going to be as "warm white" as possible (e.g. close to 2700K with a mix of higher-K added only during daytime) with the blue peak being as small as possible. Incidentally, I actually DO want to add blue at times, because at my latitude days are short and dark during winter time and daylight temperature lighting seems to be beneficial during daytime hours. How do I make use of "information" in this article? Do I reject LEDs altogether? Do I look to minimize certain frequencies? If so, which ones specifically? Do I avoid exceeding certain intensity? (then give me at threshold for Lux at eye position) Or do I avoid exceeding certain energy radiated within a specific band? It's frustrating, because apart from the FUD, there is little to go on.
- Itsdijital 7y agoIts the blue light, when I worked with "hard" blue LEDs (~460nm), I had to wear special glasses or I could literally feel my retinas melting. Just stick with warm white and you'll be good. Warm white still emits a fair amount of blue light, but its approximately around 1/3 that of cool or daylight white LEDs. Remember that natural sunlight is many orders of magnitude stronger than any 5000K LED and unlike LEDs has tons of UV as well. You could likely offset any damage and then some just by wearing sunglasses anytime you are out in the sun.
- hevi_jos 7y agoAre you sure of that? I believe humans have evolved to accept certain damage as natural and it just repairs itself. When I expose myself to moderate amounts of light, my body reacts making my skin darker, which protects my skin against light. Think for example gravity, that is exerting acceleration that damages our bodies, so our body has to react making bones and muscles. If we go to space and do not apply damage, the human becomes weaker, as it atrophies. If we make a person to breathe in a total clean environment(filtered air), the immune system atrophies, then if you make the person breath normal air, you can kill her. Of course we also know that too much is very bad, because it exceeds the limits of the human body to repair and something breaks down. Common sense is key. If you go to the mountain or the sea in summer in Spain, Italy, Greece, Morroco, New Zealand... you should be extremely careful. This exposure in thousands of times more than indoors(or countries like UK) and UV light skyrockets.
- AngryData 7y agoAfter buying LEDs by diode type online, instead of just whatever generic shit they sell at the hardware store for light fixtures, it really became apparent how trash most hardware store lights were. Not to mention many of the replacement LED socket lights are flickering from the mains frequency. The efficiency in random socket versions are crap compared to the high efficiency diodes you can buy if you look in the right places, often the store versions are around 60-100 lumens per watt, when you can get closer to 180-200 lumens per watt.
- ourlordcaffeine 7y agoCan you give any pointers? I'm finding it quite hard to find datasheets and spectral measurements for bulbs sold online, they really don't give consumers much information.
- butteroverflow 7y agoI know of a very good resource [0], although it is in Russian. But I think you can still make use of the comparison table [1]. Here are the rough translations of the columns: * brand; * model; * description; * price (RUB, divide it by 65 to get USD); * power in watts; * luminous flux in lumen; * efficiency (lumen / watt); * power of an equivalent incandescent lamp; * color temperature, K; * CRI; * light cone angle in degrees; * flicker coefficient; * supports switches with indicator lights; * overall rating (from 1 through 5, with 1 being lowest); * warranty in months; * can you still find it for sale? There are lots of information on each lamp if you click on the model name. [0] http://lamptest.ru http://lamptest.ru [1] http://lamptest.ru/results/ http://lamptest.ru/results/
- blunte 7y agoAnecdotal, but I love "daylight" white (which often looks quite blue to people at first). I spent a year of home office working with fantastic bright 6500K LED lighting, plus great big monitors calibrated. At the end of a year of far too many hours worked (staring into screens), I was having strange vision problems and periods where my eyes actually felt pressurized and uncomfortable in their sockets. When my insane project was over and I took some time off, my eye problems went away. It's a shame if 6500K light is harmful, because I find it so energizing and refreshing compared to eye-burning yellow light. This article said in passing that they cast doubts as to the efficacy of blue blocking glasses, but I don't see why proper filters on glasses wouldn't be effective.
- herf 7y agof.lux author here. I'm pasting parts of the 458 page PDF into Google Translate. The recommendations look very good, and don't particularly match the Yahoo article. 1. They recommend IEEE 1789 as a flicker standard for Europe, which is fantastic, as it covers lower levels of stroboscopic flicker that other standards have missed. (e.g., typical 120Hz flicker from direct-wire TLEDs) 2. They re-state the "acute" hazard from extremely bright LEDs, while urging some caution on "chronic exposure" to lower light levels. Suggest that some automotive lights could be a problem since they have high luminance. Urge more research on progression of macular degeneration and chronic exposure. The question about acute levels refers to a paper by Hunter [2012]. Nobody is saying that screens or residential lights pose a new problem. 3. Circadian recommendations are solid - more light during the day, and reduce light around 480nm at night. Pregnant women and children may have lower thresholds. 4. Say most ophthalmic lenses filtering blue light don't do very much, and specialized ones (you'd say very orange or red) are required for circadian effects.
- thinkling 7y ago> "Nobody is saying that screens or residential lights pose a new problem." This right here is the key for most people. Thanks for f.lux, by the way, have been running it for years!
- pcdoodle 7y agoRespect. Love your software.
- chrisfinne 7y agof.lux changed my life. Always thought I was just a night person. After decades of late-night coding, f.lux educated me about blue light and allowed me to rejoin the living.
- hnick 7y agoWhen I changed ISPs I also changed my modem, which is in the closet in our master bedroom. It's brighter than a disco so I bought some light dimmer stickers. It's still too bright so once I remember where I put them, I'm going to add another layer. It's ridiculous. The only upside is that they are green instead of blue, thankfully.