3 ms·

Before globalization and free trade it was roughly true that what was good for American industry was good for the American people. Now that money can be trans

Before globalization and free trade it was roughly true that what was good for American industry was good for the American people. Now that money can be transferred from country to country easily, that factories can be transferred easily, etc. it is no longer true, necessarily, that what is good for American industry is good for the American people. The economic and political beliefs of the masses have not caught up to this new reality. They still think in terms of Ford being an American company rather than a company whose headquarters are in America. The interests of a corporation are to its shareholders and not to any particular country. Mega corporations like Shell transcend the nation state. They are able to influence the national policies of multiple countries at once. Unfortunately politics is local and the big picture is lost on the majority of people. People are largely stuck in the paradigm of my country versus your country. This is allowing corporations to commit morally dubious acts on a grand scale.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Why do you feel it is bad for the American people to have our computers and televisions made in China? Are consumers enjoying cheaper goods not also Americans? (Note: Ford is a silly example. Many of our cars are already made in the US by machines owned by domestic subsidiaries of foreign corporations. The machines are operated by a small number of non-union laborers earning high wages.)
- jimbokun 16y ago
  "Why do you feel it is bad for the American people to have our computers and televisions made in China?" I do not see this claim in the comment you are replying to.
  - krschultz 16y ago
    "Before globalization and free trade it was roughly true that what was good for American industry was good for the American people. " Offshoring manufacturing may leave a small group of people without jobs, but it lowers the cost of goods for everyone.
    - okaramian 16y ago
      That statement does not only relate to manufacturing. You're putting words in the poster's mouth.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  I was trying to think of an example of a multinational company that many Americans think of as an American company. I believe Ford fits the bill.
- Kaizyn 16y ago
  The problem is that it costs money to buy those inexpensive computers and TVs. If there aren't the jobs in the US to make these things, then there aren't the wages necessary to buy them. For a while, this wasn't a problem but as time goes on the lack of production in the US is hurting the public more and more.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    There is no lack of production in the US. Except during recessions and minor blips, it has not dropped since the early 70's (maybe earlier, my graph only goes back that far). http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN Further, in spite of producing more goods with fewer workers, people in the US have managed to purchase more of these items now than ever before.
    - yequalsx 16y ago
      There is a lack of production in key industries though. Yes, Americans have managed to purchase more stuff. There is a cost to this production of the items that we import that isn't currently being paid for. The damage to the environment is one notable such cost. It doesn't show up in the economic charts as a cost but it is a real cost nonetheless. Also, a large part of our ability to purchase 'more of these items' comes in the form of a massive increase in our debt. At some point the party will stop. Our present system is not sustainable for much longer unless changes are made.
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        What makes an industry a "key industry"? I did a search for broad categories of production (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/search/industrial+production/1 http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/search/industrial+produ... ), the only one where I could find a decline was mining: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMINE http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMINE I suppose I can see some strategic issues with mining, particularly given China's recent protectionism regarding rare earths. But on the other hand, if they really cause us problems, we can quickly make them capitulate by repudiating all their bonds and cutting off trade. Also, I agree that the current "party" in which China taxes their citizens to lower the cost of goods they send to us will eventually stop. But it's unclear to me what this has to do with our increased production levels - in fact, such a move will likely increase our production levels.
yesno 16y ago
Last night I told my wife that the future seems scary with all these rich multi-international companies starting to stick their legs deeper in foreign countries infrastructure. Oils, Natural Gas, Minings, Banks. I can only pray that these giants won't create a huge ticking time-bomb such that governments all over the world had to bail them out in the future in case something bad happened. (The conversation happened when I saw HSBC advertisement saying that they are the "local bank everywhere you go").
- artmageddon 16y ago
  It's an interesting point to make. There was a particular cable from Wikileaks that talked about how Shell had infiltrated a large portion of the Nigerian government. Who knows what else is in the works?
  - yesno 16y ago
    I've been semi-following wikileaks but I didn't know about this Shell-Nigerian infiltration issue. Sometime I feel that whatever noble cause Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do will eventually be overridden by these issues in the future. What we're seeing is a humongous circle of evil: A company started with a decent intention: just to make a living. Once its existence is threatened by competitors, it is forced to expand in order to be competitive. When all "ethical" routes to expand had been explored, they started to do a less "un-ethical" moves (i.e.: infiltrate, spy, bribe, etc). Government is the first and foremost primary target for these kind of activities. Once it happened, government is no longer a pure entity that can lead a nation. Government turns into a commercial entity where it tries to make every single employee rich. When every dirty little secrets are exposed, citizens might turn against their own government. Probably in the form of militants, rebels, and whatnot. What once was an ideal movement to overrule the corrupt government might put these idealist in the same spot as the previous governments: "hey, we fought for this country and it's time for us to enjoy the best time of our lives ... while we can". Thus the circle of corruption in the government continues. It all started with "Money". It is truly the root of all evils. Somehow I've seen these things unfold in most Hollywood movies. WikiLeaks, corrupted government, overruling militants. On the other hand, it looks like China is trying to stay away from all the debacles by rebuilding and reinvesting on its own infrastructure. While China has its own issues with human rights and freedom of speech, it is probably one of the nations that "seem" less corrupt to foreign interests (they're still corrupt within themselves) compare to other nations. But I might be very wrong about China.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Why do you feel it is bad for the American people to have our computers and televisions made in China? Are consumers enjoying cheaper goods not also Americans? (Note: Ford is a silly example. Many of our cars are already made in the US by machines owned by domestic subsidiaries of foreign corporations. The machines are operated by a small number of non-union laborers earning high wages.)

jimbokun 16y ago
"Why do you feel it is bad for the American people to have our computers and televisions made in China?" I do not see this claim in the comment you are replying to.
- krschultz 16y ago
  "Before globalization and free trade it was roughly true that what was good for American industry was good for the American people. " Offshoring manufacturing may leave a small group of people without jobs, but it lowers the cost of goods for everyone.
  - okaramian 16y ago
    That statement does not only relate to manufacturing. You're putting words in the poster's mouth.
yequalsx 16y ago
I was trying to think of an example of a multinational company that many Americans think of as an American company. I believe Ford fits the bill.
Kaizyn 16y ago
The problem is that it costs money to buy those inexpensive computers and TVs. If there aren't the jobs in the US to make these things, then there aren't the wages necessary to buy them. For a while, this wasn't a problem but as time goes on the lack of production in the US is hurting the public more and more.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  There is no lack of production in the US. Except during recessions and minor blips, it has not dropped since the early 70's (maybe earlier, my graph only goes back that far). http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN Further, in spite of producing more goods with fewer workers, people in the US have managed to purchase more of these items now than ever before.
  - yequalsx 16y ago
    There is a lack of production in key industries though. Yes, Americans have managed to purchase more stuff. There is a cost to this production of the items that we import that isn't currently being paid for. The damage to the environment is one notable such cost. It doesn't show up in the economic charts as a cost but it is a real cost nonetheless. Also, a large part of our ability to purchase 'more of these items' comes in the form of a massive increase in our debt. At some point the party will stop. Our present system is not sustainable for much longer unless changes are made.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      What makes an industry a "key industry"? I did a search for broad categories of production (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/search/industrial+production/1 http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/search/industrial+produ... ), the only one where I could find a decline was mining: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMINE http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMINE I suppose I can see some strategic issues with mining, particularly given China's recent protectionism regarding rare earths. But on the other hand, if they really cause us problems, we can quickly make them capitulate by repudiating all their bonds and cutting off trade. Also, I agree that the current "party" in which China taxes their citizens to lower the cost of goods they send to us will eventually stop. But it's unclear to me what this has to do with our increased production levels - in fact, such a move will likely increase our production levels.

yesno 16y ago

Last night I told my wife that the future seems scary with all these rich multi-international companies starting to stick their legs deeper in foreign countries infrastructure. Oils, Natural Gas, Minings, Banks. I can only pray that these giants won't create a huge ticking time-bomb such that governments all over the world had to bail them out in the future in case something bad happened. (The conversation happened when I saw HSBC advertisement saying that they are the "local bank everywhere you go").

artmageddon 16y ago
It's an interesting point to make. There was a particular cable from Wikileaks that talked about how Shell had infiltrated a large portion of the Nigerian government. Who knows what else is in the works?
- yesno 16y ago
  I've been semi-following wikileaks but I didn't know about this Shell-Nigerian infiltration issue. Sometime I feel that whatever noble cause Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do will eventually be overridden by these issues in the future. What we're seeing is a humongous circle of evil: A company started with a decent intention: just to make a living. Once its existence is threatened by competitors, it is forced to expand in order to be competitive. When all "ethical" routes to expand had been explored, they started to do a less "un-ethical" moves (i.e.: infiltrate, spy, bribe, etc). Government is the first and foremost primary target for these kind of activities. Once it happened, government is no longer a pure entity that can lead a nation. Government turns into a commercial entity where it tries to make every single employee rich. When every dirty little secrets are exposed, citizens might turn against their own government. Probably in the form of militants, rebels, and whatnot. What once was an ideal movement to overrule the corrupt government might put these idealist in the same spot as the previous governments: "hey, we fought for this country and it's time for us to enjoy the best time of our lives ... while we can". Thus the circle of corruption in the government continues. It all started with "Money". It is truly the root of all evils. Somehow I've seen these things unfold in most Hollywood movies. WikiLeaks, corrupted government, overruling militants. On the other hand, it looks like China is trying to stay away from all the debacles by rebuilding and reinvesting on its own infrastructure. While China has its own issues with human rights and freedom of speech, it is probably one of the nations that "seem" less corrupt to foreign interests (they're still corrupt within themselves) compare to other nations. But I might be very wrong about China.