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> I associate crypto with shonk, which puts keybase.io in the "this is a crypto thing? Hmmm.... shonky." category. I'm sorry to hear that. There is a lot of sc

by xur17 7y ago

> I associate crypto with shonk, which puts keybase.io in the "this is a crypto thing? Hmmm.... shonky." category. I'm sorry to hear that. There is a lot of scammy behavior in the space, but there is also a lot of interesting work going on. It just turns out that the shitty people speak the loudest, so they're the ones you hear about, rather than all of the people heads down working hard on interesting problems. I don't think it is intellectually honest to dismiss the entire space as a scam due to the bad actors.

api 7y ago
The defense is to point out some genuinely useful work going on in the space that doesn't revolve around speculation.
- michaelsbradley 7y ago
  How about pure development work to build tools that can be used to experiment with and build atop decentralized technologies such as IPFS and Ethereum blockchain, etc.? https://embark.status.im/ https://embark.status.im/ https://github.com/embark-framework/embark https://github.com/embark-framework/embark
  - k__ 7y ago
    IPFS seems to solve an actual problem without too much overhead tho...
    - michaelsbradley 7y ago
      See: https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/pull/4405 https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/pull/4405.
- xur17 7y ago
  * Bitcoin's lightning network * Stable coins (Dai, USDC, etc) * What Keybase just built (much easier way to manage keys for wallets) * Makerdao's decentralized loan system The first 2 enable you to transfer value over the internet in a cheap and non-revokable way (internet cash). The third one simplifies wallet management for the first two. The last one opens up a bunch of new opportunities for borrowing money without having to trust your counterparty. All of this enables people to transfer value without any middlemen. And separate from this, projects like IPFS / Filecoin (if they actually work) would let you store data without using a centralized third party.
  - drawnwren 7y ago
    I agree that crypto could be valuable. But, (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash and (2) there needs to be a reason to make crypto transactions other than drugs or vaguely crypto-anarchist philosophy. (b) Tether's recent scandal has made all stable coins fairly suspect. (d) The makerdao system has some pretty serious problems. High liquidation rates and skyrocketing fees both come up. If anything, crypto has taught us (through the plethora of 2018/19 crypto scams) that revokability is a feature of transactions that is _valuable_. I'd say my biggest takeaways from crypto, currently, are that there is not such thing as 'without having to trust the other party' and that all of the middlemen in the current financial system do provide more value than just taking a cut (while that value is probably not proportional to the cut that they take). All that said, I'm still optimistic on crypto. However, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to replace a significant part of the web in its current form.
    - RustyRussell 7y ago
      > (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash [ Disclosure: I work on the lightning specification and one of the implementations ] I'm sure it has been attacked (because "cryptos, bro"), I'm disappointed that it made you dismiss it. FWIW, I switched from Linux Kernel development to developing Lightning after almost 20 years: I find it ambitious, high-potential and fascinating, as well as challenging.
      - drawnwren 7y ago
        I don't mean to attack you. It's just that there is a large gap between well-engineered and easy to use. I am 100% certain you're a better developer than I, and that lightning is not a result of poor engineering. But if a layman can't pick it up and use it in under 5 minutes, it's unworkable (if you're targeting laymen). Crypto is full of genius engineers, and product folks, but I think there is (and always has been) a usability crisis. Thanks for your work on both Linux and Lightning. I look forward to the day you can point to this comment on HN as being ridiculously dated.
- ChainOfFools 7y ago
  I would add to that some explanation as to why the proposed decentralization of custody, control and leverage inherent in any cryptocurrency proposition should be expected to remain stable indefinitely rather than collapse into a conventional, de facto centralized model under the inexorable pressure of competition to derive profit from such a system
- ericflo 7y ago
  I have a bunch of data backed up on the Sia file storage marketplace. Works fine for that purpose for me today.
- fourstar 7y ago
  You just described literally anything new.

by xur17 7y ago

api 7y ago

The defense is to point out some genuinely useful work going on in the space that doesn't revolve around speculation.

michaelsbradley 7y ago
How about pure development work to build tools that can be used to experiment with and build atop decentralized technologies such as IPFS and Ethereum blockchain, etc.? https://embark.status.im/ https://embark.status.im/ https://github.com/embark-framework/embark https://github.com/embark-framework/embark
- k__ 7y ago
  IPFS seems to solve an actual problem without too much overhead tho...
  - michaelsbradley 7y ago
    See: https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/pull/4405 https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/pull/4405.
xur17 7y ago
* Bitcoin's lightning network * Stable coins (Dai, USDC, etc) * What Keybase just built (much easier way to manage keys for wallets) * Makerdao's decentralized loan system The first 2 enable you to transfer value over the internet in a cheap and non-revokable way (internet cash). The third one simplifies wallet management for the first two. The last one opens up a bunch of new opportunities for borrowing money without having to trust your counterparty. All of this enables people to transfer value without any middlemen. And separate from this, projects like IPFS / Filecoin (if they actually work) would let you store data without using a centralized third party.
- drawnwren 7y ago
  I agree that crypto could be valuable. But, (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash and (2) there needs to be a reason to make crypto transactions other than drugs or vaguely crypto-anarchist philosophy. (b) Tether's recent scandal has made all stable coins fairly suspect. (d) The makerdao system has some pretty serious problems. High liquidation rates and skyrocketing fees both come up. If anything, crypto has taught us (through the plethora of 2018/19 crypto scams) that revokability is a feature of transactions that is _valuable_. I'd say my biggest takeaways from crypto, currently, are that there is not such thing as 'without having to trust the other party' and that all of the middlemen in the current financial system do provide more value than just taking a cut (while that value is probably not proportional to the cut that they take). All that said, I'm still optimistic on crypto. However, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to replace a significant part of the web in its current form.
  - RustyRussell 7y ago
    > (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash [ Disclosure: I work on the lightning specification and one of the implementations ] I'm sure it has been attacked (because "cryptos, bro"), I'm disappointed that it made you dismiss it. FWIW, I switched from Linux Kernel development to developing Lightning after almost 20 years: I find it ambitious, high-potential and fascinating, as well as challenging.
    - drawnwren 7y ago
      I don't mean to attack you. It's just that there is a large gap between well-engineered and easy to use. I am 100% certain you're a better developer than I, and that lightning is not a result of poor engineering. But if a layman can't pick it up and use it in under 5 minutes, it's unworkable (if you're targeting laymen). Crypto is full of genius engineers, and product folks, but I think there is (and always has been) a usability crisis. Thanks for your work on both Linux and Lightning. I look forward to the day you can point to this comment on HN as being ridiculously dated.
ChainOfFools 7y ago
I would add to that some explanation as to why the proposed decentralization of custody, control and leverage inherent in any cryptocurrency proposition should be expected to remain stable indefinitely rather than collapse into a conventional, de facto centralized model under the inexorable pressure of competition to derive profit from such a system
ericflo 7y ago
I have a bunch of data backed up on the Sia file storage marketplace. Works fine for that purpose for me today.
fourstar 7y ago
You just described literally anything new.