8 ms·

Well, it can be both. Just because it's good for the environment, and maybe even the economy as a whole, doesn't mean that it's not causing pain. Real pain, t

Well, it can be both. Just because it's good for the environment, and maybe even the economy as a whole, doesn't mean that it's not causing pain. Real pain, to real people. Who really should be helped, perhaps helped to get those jobs in solar and wind! If we had a functional Congress, that's the sort of thing we would be doing.

chipperyman573 8y ago
Of course it's anecdotal evidence, but I listened to a podcast a while ago (don't remember which one) that invited a government clerk that helped people find retraining programs. According to her, her department has so few people applying that they would accept literally any request for training - even if it had nothing to do with what the funds were allocated for (in this case retraining from coal to solar). According to her, a big part of the problem is you have people in (usually small) towns whose parents lived their entire lives working coal, and think that the only way to be a man is to work it too.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  I'd be curious to see how this trend holds up among the various blue-collar careers. My parents were commercial fishermen and they wanted me to get as far away from fishing as possible.
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  Can't speak to that specifically, but one thing I have heard in other similar cases is that the people who try the retraining programs, find that they don't work. Some people can sit in a classroom and listen to a lecture and learn something, other people learn by doing something on the job. If we still had widespread apprenticeship as a way to learn, this would be fine. Classroom training isn't really the greatest way to learn something. But it's the way our society has doubled down on in the last generation or so, to the point that high schools shut down shop class programs and expanded AP, regarding anyone who didn't go to college as a failure. Again, I don't know if it applies to the case you're discussing, just raising it as a possible explanation.
dyarosla 8y ago
Problem is, retraining programs are generally ineffective, between 0-15% according to some sources. So transitioning workers from job A to job B is really more of a pipe dream than a reality. It’s also partially why calls for UBI and other alternative solutions are gaining traction nowadays (although, atm only one person is running on that platform for President in the states)
- zdragnar 8y ago
  Have there been any "successful" UBI experiments? I've seen results from a few that didn't pan out as expected, but conclusions were generally either that the method was flawed (which might be a cop-out) or that the amount provided didn't rise to the level of "true" UBI. I'm genuinely curious as to whether it could replace other existing welfare programs, or if it would exacerbate self-destructive behaviors in the absence of opportunities for earned and delayed gratification.
  - dyarosla 8y ago
    Many UBI ‘trials’ have been run but stopped short of completion. Results never pointed to any negatives (unless you count level unemployment as a negative like it was counted in Finland). Generally outcomes are positive. Moreover programs akin to UBI have worked in places like Alaska. Many of these trials are cut short due to ‘unsustainability’- generally due to the fact that the programs aren’t actually paid for by anything- UBI on its own is unsustainable ! As such, the candidate I mentioned above is running on a platform that looks to consolidate existing welfare programs and implement a VAT to help afford the policy.
    - grogenaut 8y ago
      Links please. You are making a lot of statements without any backing like "are gaining traction" and "have worked". Since you are having to educate us on these basic facts of the thing your excited about, could you go further and provide us good places to learn more?
      - 8y ago
tzs 8y ago
There was even a plan from one of the 2016 Presidential candidates that could be a good starting point for helping them [1]. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20160321063455/https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/11/12/clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160321063455/https://www.hilla...
wonderwonder 8y ago
I agree to the people losing its life shattering, especially when one considers entire communities and ways of life are built around it. Another aspect to consider though is that coal in its entirety employs less people than Arbys the fast food restaurant. If tomorrow, the news announced that Arbys was in danger of going out of business, the country would shrug. Coal wields a disproportionate amount of political and cultural power for the number of people it employs and the damage it does.
- kortilla 8y ago
  Maybe because Arby’s jobs are shit, and even if they weren’t the skills easily transfer to the thousands of other restaurants. Coal jobs are in that waning category of blue collar jobs that you can have a decent life on. So it’s lamented the same way as when auto plants close, manufacturing plants close, etc. You’re right it has too much power, but you have to put more effort into understanding why.

chipperyman573 8y ago

Of course it's anecdotal evidence, but I listened to a podcast a while ago (don't remember which one) that invited a government clerk that helped people find retraining programs. According to her, her department has so few people applying that they would accept literally any request for training - even if it had nothing to do with what the funds were allocated for (in this case retraining from coal to solar). According to her, a big part of the problem is you have people in (usually small) towns whose parents lived their entire lives working coal, and think that the only way to be a man is to work it too.

fzeroracer 8y ago
I'd be curious to see how this trend holds up among the various blue-collar careers. My parents were commercial fishermen and they wanted me to get as far away from fishing as possible.
rossdavidh 8y ago
Can't speak to that specifically, but one thing I have heard in other similar cases is that the people who try the retraining programs, find that they don't work. Some people can sit in a classroom and listen to a lecture and learn something, other people learn by doing something on the job. If we still had widespread apprenticeship as a way to learn, this would be fine. Classroom training isn't really the greatest way to learn something. But it's the way our society has doubled down on in the last generation or so, to the point that high schools shut down shop class programs and expanded AP, regarding anyone who didn't go to college as a failure. Again, I don't know if it applies to the case you're discussing, just raising it as a possible explanation.

dyarosla 8y ago

Problem is, retraining programs are generally ineffective, between 0-15% according to some sources. So transitioning workers from job A to job B is really more of a pipe dream than a reality. It’s also partially why calls for UBI and other alternative solutions are gaining traction nowadays (although, atm only one person is running on that platform for President in the states)

zdragnar 8y ago
Have there been any "successful" UBI experiments? I've seen results from a few that didn't pan out as expected, but conclusions were generally either that the method was flawed (which might be a cop-out) or that the amount provided didn't rise to the level of "true" UBI. I'm genuinely curious as to whether it could replace other existing welfare programs, or if it would exacerbate self-destructive behaviors in the absence of opportunities for earned and delayed gratification.
- dyarosla 8y ago
  Many UBI ‘trials’ have been run but stopped short of completion. Results never pointed to any negatives (unless you count level unemployment as a negative like it was counted in Finland). Generally outcomes are positive. Moreover programs akin to UBI have worked in places like Alaska. Many of these trials are cut short due to ‘unsustainability’- generally due to the fact that the programs aren’t actually paid for by anything- UBI on its own is unsustainable ! As such, the candidate I mentioned above is running on a platform that looks to consolidate existing welfare programs and implement a VAT to help afford the policy.
  - grogenaut 8y ago
    Links please. You are making a lot of statements without any backing like "are gaining traction" and "have worked". Since you are having to educate us on these basic facts of the thing your excited about, could you go further and provide us good places to learn more?
    - 8y ago

tzs 8y ago

There was even a plan from one of the 2016 Presidential candidates that could be a good starting point for helping them [1]. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20160321063455/https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/11/12/clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160321063455/https://www.hilla...

wonderwonder 8y ago

I agree to the people losing its life shattering, especially when one considers entire communities and ways of life are built around it. Another aspect to consider though is that coal in its entirety employs less people than Arbys the fast food restaurant. If tomorrow, the news announced that Arbys was in danger of going out of business, the country would shrug. Coal wields a disproportionate amount of political and cultural power for the number of people it employs and the damage it does.

kortilla 8y ago
Maybe because Arby’s jobs are shit, and even if they weren’t the skills easily transfer to the thousands of other restaurants. Coal jobs are in that waning category of blue collar jobs that you can have a decent life on. So it’s lamented the same way as when auto plants close, manufacturing plants close, etc. You’re right it has too much power, but you have to put more effort into understanding why.