8 ms·

Lenovo launches HoloLens competitor

124 points by yodon 7y ago

writimov 7y ago
I've used a Google Glass, Oculus Rift, Cardboard VR systems and seen a demo of Oculus Rift. Is the Lenovo ThinkReality a real competitor? The market hasn't picked up VR for gaming and AR has flopped so far. How about high end systems for engineering and design. There could be a case where engineering speed and collaboration could increase from using a few of these systems at any company doing hardware design.
- k__ 7y ago
  I think VR could take off this year. The Quest and Shadow VR have reasonable price ranges. AR headsets are still a magnitude too expensive.
  - keyle 7y ago
    Still miles away from mass adoption. VR/AR is at the stage of the Apple Newton and I don't think we're at the iPhone stage yet (in relative terms).
    - eugeniub 7y ago
      I think Oculus Quest could be the iPhone of VR. Keep in mind that the iPhone gen 1 didn’t sell well at all compared to just about any other iPhone generation.
      - skellera 7y ago
        It’s not about selling well. It’s revolutionizing the field. I don’t think the quest would be considered that. It’s great and will bring more people to the market but it is still to be seen if that price point for something only a single person can enjoy at a time will be a game changer.
        eugeniub 7y ago
        Ok, then by that definition the Oculus Rift is the iPhone of VR.
      - rchaud 7y ago
        The iPhone brought mobile internet browsing into mainstream consciousness; we were already addicted to the Internet before it arrived, so it's no wonder that iPhones and smartphones took off. The Oculus on the other hand has to provide not just good ergonomics, but also content that showcases the hardware well. I had a Galaxy S7 and GearVR headset in 2016. Some of the games were cool like a TRON-style Pong game, but most of the content was awful, stuff like "explore a famous museum", which was all badly optimized, pixelated 3D video. Even if Oculus launched with a VR version of a product that's known to be highly sticky engagement wise (e.g Fortnite), I don't know if people would go for it. Fortnite is already on every device anyway, are people really so into it that they want to be fully immersed visually when playing?
        k__ 7y ago
        I had the impression that the iPhone brought the Internet in general to the masses. The mobile market is orders of magnitude bigger than the desktop market ever was.
    - samplatt 7y ago
      I'd put it closer to the HTC TyTn or first Google phone levels. It's still an enthusiasts thing, and there's no barrier for entry other than knowing what you want. Once it becomes something that people want without knowing why, then it'll be iPhone level.
  - samplatt 7y ago
    Could take off? It already has. Four of my buddies that play Rocket League almost exclusively have dropped AU$300 on a headset because we showed them Beat Saber at a LAN party, and they haven't stopped playing it since.
- mdorazio 7y ago
  You're mixing AR and VR into the same bucket when the use cases are fairly different. ThinkReality is a competitor to HoloLens and Magic Leap, both of which (and this, too) are still in the dev kit / proof of concept phase. VR systems work just fine and are technically mass market ready, they just cost too much and the market for people who want to strap a heavy thing onto their face for long periods of time is smaller than a lot people expected. Headset VR like this is indeed being evaluated mostly for non-consumer applications right now, including manual labor guidance (think mechanics and surgeons), team collaboration, and 3D design, but the price and capabilities are at least a generation away from being appealing to most companies.
- AlphaWeaver 7y ago
  I've used the original Hololens and one of the things that stuck with me was how well-polished it was from an OS standpoint. Microsoft has worked hard on Windows Holographic and it shows. If this device can run Windows Holographic I think this could be really great. Lenovo already works with Microsoft to run it on some of their budget AR headsets but it is unclear to me whether Microsoft will grant them permission to use it on something that's a more direct Hololens competitor. I get the impression that running their own android-based holographic OS will not be the best though.
  - TravHatesMe 7y ago
    I was also impressed by the original Hololens. The hardware, however, needs some improvements. The headset was a bit heavy for long term use and the resolution of the AR image was not as good as I had expected. The software and SDK were solid; what stood out to me was the realtime spatial construction of the environment.
    - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
      I agree. They're supposed to have worked on both in the Hololens 2, but I haven't gotten a chance to try the latest iteration yet.
  - Paraesthetic 7y ago
    They probably would, I mean the whole point of Microsoft being in the hardware game is to lift the quality of their hardware partners right?
- ako 7y ago
  I don't think AR has flopped so far, but when it's used well it's not perceived as AR. For example, my car has a rear camera, which overlays where you are going depending on the position of the steering wheel. This is reality augmented, but since it feels so natural, nobody thinks about this as AR.
  - callalex 7y ago
    I disagree that the steering guide lines on a reverse camera are AR. A key aspect of AR is that it is environment-aware. An image overlaid on a video is not actually aware of “reality” at all.
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      The lines turning with your steering wheel is slight awareness of the environment, namely the direction your wheels are facing Some go a bit further and overlay imaginary barriers based on the distance of objects near you: https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/gvHEEq5aZgDanoLARwsAzNN66Qk=/1600x900/2017/08/07/5f966565-32ec-407d-8aba-1182f51c1eca/hero-cameras.jpg https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/gvHEEq5aZgDanoLARwsAzNN66Qk... But yeah, in general this application doesn't have the kind of impact people are talking about when they say mainstream AR.
    - mason55 7y ago
      Yeah the steering guides are not really AR but the rectangles that pop up on the thing you’re about to hit and turn colors based on how close your definitely are AR.
  - sheep-a 7y ago
    I'm not convinced... to me AR is an environment you can interact with or it interacts with the environment. Some lines drawn on a screen. meh
    - ldng 7y ago
      Or you could see it as concrete real world baby step ? It's AR for the car to interact with, through a steering but still interaction. I, personally, find that more interesting than VR toy/game I've seen so far.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  VR is growing slowly, but exponentially[0], which is a good sign that the platform is healthy. [0]https://www.roadtovr.com/monthly-connected-vr-headsets-on-steam-have-grown-exponentially-analysis/ https://www.roadtovr.com/monthly-connected-vr-headsets-on-st...
- in3d 7y ago
  AR is essentially in beta. There are no consumer-oriented products and the improvements between generations are huge. Much, much too early to say it has failed.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    There are plenty of consumer-oriented products if you count the average phone. iOS and Android have both made big plays around AR. While it's not "goggles AR", it's also seeing a slow but steady adoption by consumers in the boring, but still important to AR handheld way. You'll see people randomly using the measurement tools and other "boring" AR utilities all the time now, and then there are games like Ingress, Pokémon Go, and the soon to be released Harry Potter AR game, which all have rather large consumer adoption. AR is getting so prevalent it's already "boring" or just a part of the user experience for consumers. What that means for eventual adoption of "goggles AR" for consumers is an interesting question. It's probably going to come down to form factor preferences and how many people want their main computing device to be in their pocket versus worn on their head, or how easy it is for the device to "flex" between roles as interest/necessary.
- Legogris 7y ago
  I can't speak for ThinkReality, but HoloLens (2) is definitely not intended to be an Oculus competitor but for industry applications. I'm confident that consumer-grade AR/VR for anything but enthusiasts is at least a couple of device generations away.
whamlastxmas 7y ago
Can't even visit because it's trying to redirect me through some ad tracking url. Wonder if it's just me
- O_H_E 7y ago
  works fine with ublock for me
- lewisj489 7y ago
  Same
- yodon 7y ago
  you might try https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-unveils-new-intelligent-devices-solutions-enterprise/ https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-unve...
- neonate 7y ago
  http://archive.is/grv32 http://archive.is/grv32
  - whamlastxmas 7y ago
    Thanks
dna_polymerase 7y ago
The only place I see such devices are highly polished demos to show the 'capabilities of AR/VR'. I've never seen such headsets used for anything even remotely useful (not considering gaming as extremely useful). I think the AR/VR craze is just here because we have nothing really new at the moment and investors want to pour money into something.
- jackbrookes 7y ago
  I run psychology experiments (motor control/spatial decision making) in VR and and its been a gamechanger in the last few years. Create your experiments completely in software to allow them to copied, modified, and distributed much more easily.
  - matthewwiese 7y ago
    That is an absolutely fascinating application that I've never considered before. One could design all sorts of experiments, not just exclusively spatial reasoning. Imagine allowing a class of undergraduate students to participate in a version of Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment and draw their own conclusions as to potential flaws in its methodology. Or, as a philosophy student: allow students to engage in a real life rendition of Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment, where a student "competes" against his or her classmates and various versions of text generation algorithms from simple Markov chain generators, to OpenAI's GPT-2 and beyond.
  - netcan 7y ago
    Interesting. Anywhere I can see more on this?
    - jackbrookes 7y ago
      Here's my work so far. https://github.com/immersivecognition/unity-experiment-framework https://github.com/immersivecognition/unity-experiment-frame... https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2Fs13428-019-01242-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2Fs13428-019-01242... There are also some older papers by Loomis et al. https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03200735 https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03200735
plink 7y ago
Will it come with Superfish installed?
garmaine 7y ago
No 6DOF controllers. That’s a pretty big weakness when it comes to interacting with AR objects.
taneq 7y ago
I wonder how this will play out with IP, given that Lenovo has been manufacturing a Windows Mixed Reality headset using Microsoft's VR/AR tech? They'd have to tread very carefully to avoid stepping on any MS patents etc. with inside-out tracking. Also, once again (as with Valve vs. HTC) we see the pattern playing out: 1) Platform owner develops new tech to be used on their platform, tries to foster an ecosystem 2) Third parties develop products based on the tech 3) Third parties launch competing platform because in the end, platforms are more profitable than hardware 4) Market is fragmented and we can't have nice things
- yumraj 7y ago
  This is how it will play out: 1) MS will sue Lenovo. 2) China will threaten MS with consequences including no access to China market. 3) MS will withdraw the lawsuit and lick its wounds.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    Maybe, but China makes up a very tiny fraction of msft revenue. The only reason they would give in to threats from China would be if they believe that in the future the piracy problem in China will go away for them.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    From my 9 years working in Microsoft China, I think Lenovo, Microsoft, and China all have a very good relationship. I’d be very surprised if Microsoft took action against Lenovo, I would be astounded if they went anywhere near where the Chinese government would admonish them.
    - WorldMaker 7y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised here if Microsoft was even intentionally lending the IP. Microsoft doesn't want to be the sole hardware vendor in a category, so encouraging HoloLens clones is probably somewhere on their explicit agenda.
  - nbevans 7y ago

124 points by yodon 7y ago

I've used a Google Glass, Oculus Rift, Cardboard VR systems and seen a demo of Oculus Rift. Is the Lenovo ThinkReality a real competitor? The market hasn't picked up VR for gaming and AR has flopped so far. How about high end systems for engineering and design. There could be a case where engineering speed and collaboration could increase from using a few of these systems at any company doing hardware design.

k__ 7y ago
I think VR could take off this year. The Quest and Shadow VR have reasonable price ranges. AR headsets are still a magnitude too expensive.
- keyle 7y ago
  Still miles away from mass adoption. VR/AR is at the stage of the Apple Newton and I don't think we're at the iPhone stage yet (in relative terms).
  - eugeniub 7y ago
    I think Oculus Quest could be the iPhone of VR. Keep in mind that the iPhone gen 1 didn’t sell well at all compared to just about any other iPhone generation.
    - skellera 7y ago
      It’s not about selling well. It’s revolutionizing the field. I don’t think the quest would be considered that. It’s great and will bring more people to the market but it is still to be seen if that price point for something only a single person can enjoy at a time will be a game changer.
      - eugeniub 7y ago
        Ok, then by that definition the Oculus Rift is the iPhone of VR.
    - rchaud 7y ago
      The iPhone brought mobile internet browsing into mainstream consciousness; we were already addicted to the Internet before it arrived, so it's no wonder that iPhones and smartphones took off. The Oculus on the other hand has to provide not just good ergonomics, but also content that showcases the hardware well. I had a Galaxy S7 and GearVR headset in 2016. Some of the games were cool like a TRON-style Pong game, but most of the content was awful, stuff like "explore a famous museum", which was all badly optimized, pixelated 3D video. Even if Oculus launched with a VR version of a product that's known to be highly sticky engagement wise (e.g Fortnite), I don't know if people would go for it. Fortnite is already on every device anyway, are people really so into it that they want to be fully immersed visually when playing?
      - k__ 7y ago
        I had the impression that the iPhone brought the Internet in general to the masses. The mobile market is orders of magnitude bigger than the desktop market ever was.
  - samplatt 7y ago
    I'd put it closer to the HTC TyTn or first Google phone levels. It's still an enthusiasts thing, and there's no barrier for entry other than knowing what you want. Once it becomes something that people want without knowing why, then it'll be iPhone level.
- samplatt 7y ago
  Could take off? It already has. Four of my buddies that play Rocket League almost exclusively have dropped AU$300 on a headset because we showed them Beat Saber at a LAN party, and they haven't stopped playing it since.
mdorazio 7y ago
You're mixing AR and VR into the same bucket when the use cases are fairly different. ThinkReality is a competitor to HoloLens and Magic Leap, both of which (and this, too) are still in the dev kit / proof of concept phase. VR systems work just fine and are technically mass market ready, they just cost too much and the market for people who want to strap a heavy thing onto their face for long periods of time is smaller than a lot people expected. Headset VR like this is indeed being evaluated mostly for non-consumer applications right now, including manual labor guidance (think mechanics and surgeons), team collaboration, and 3D design, but the price and capabilities are at least a generation away from being appealing to most companies.
AlphaWeaver 7y ago
I've used the original Hololens and one of the things that stuck with me was how well-polished it was from an OS standpoint. Microsoft has worked hard on Windows Holographic and it shows. If this device can run Windows Holographic I think this could be really great. Lenovo already works with Microsoft to run it on some of their budget AR headsets but it is unclear to me whether Microsoft will grant them permission to use it on something that's a more direct Hololens competitor. I get the impression that running their own android-based holographic OS will not be the best though.
- TravHatesMe 7y ago
  I was also impressed by the original Hololens. The hardware, however, needs some improvements. The headset was a bit heavy for long term use and the resolution of the AR image was not as good as I had expected. The software and SDK were solid; what stood out to me was the realtime spatial construction of the environment.
  - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
    I agree. They're supposed to have worked on both in the Hololens 2, but I haven't gotten a chance to try the latest iteration yet.
- Paraesthetic 7y ago
  They probably would, I mean the whole point of Microsoft being in the hardware game is to lift the quality of their hardware partners right?
ako 7y ago
I don't think AR has flopped so far, but when it's used well it's not perceived as AR. For example, my car has a rear camera, which overlays where you are going depending on the position of the steering wheel. This is reality augmented, but since it feels so natural, nobody thinks about this as AR.
- callalex 7y ago
  I disagree that the steering guide lines on a reverse camera are AR. A key aspect of AR is that it is environment-aware. An image overlaid on a video is not actually aware of “reality” at all.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    The lines turning with your steering wheel is slight awareness of the environment, namely the direction your wheels are facing Some go a bit further and overlay imaginary barriers based on the distance of objects near you: https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/gvHEEq5aZgDanoLARwsAzNN66Qk=/1600x900/2017/08/07/5f966565-32ec-407d-8aba-1182f51c1eca/hero-cameras.jpg https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/gvHEEq5aZgDanoLARwsAzNN66Qk... But yeah, in general this application doesn't have the kind of impact people are talking about when they say mainstream AR.
  - mason55 7y ago
    Yeah the steering guides are not really AR but the rectangles that pop up on the thing you’re about to hit and turn colors based on how close your definitely are AR.
- sheep-a 7y ago
  I'm not convinced... to me AR is an environment you can interact with or it interacts with the environment. Some lines drawn on a screen. meh
  - ldng 7y ago
    Or you could see it as concrete real world baby step ? It's AR for the car to interact with, through a steering but still interaction. I, personally, find that more interesting than VR toy/game I've seen so far.
cameronbrown 7y ago
VR is growing slowly, but exponentially[0], which is a good sign that the platform is healthy. [0]https://www.roadtovr.com/monthly-connected-vr-headsets-on-steam-have-grown-exponentially-analysis/ https://www.roadtovr.com/monthly-connected-vr-headsets-on-st...
in3d 7y ago
AR is essentially in beta. There are no consumer-oriented products and the improvements between generations are huge. Much, much too early to say it has failed.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  There are plenty of consumer-oriented products if you count the average phone. iOS and Android have both made big plays around AR. While it's not "goggles AR", it's also seeing a slow but steady adoption by consumers in the boring, but still important to AR handheld way. You'll see people randomly using the measurement tools and other "boring" AR utilities all the time now, and then there are games like Ingress, Pokémon Go, and the soon to be released Harry Potter AR game, which all have rather large consumer adoption. AR is getting so prevalent it's already "boring" or just a part of the user experience for consumers. What that means for eventual adoption of "goggles AR" for consumers is an interesting question. It's probably going to come down to form factor preferences and how many people want their main computing device to be in their pocket versus worn on their head, or how easy it is for the device to "flex" between roles as interest/necessary.
Legogris 7y ago
I can't speak for ThinkReality, but HoloLens (2) is definitely not intended to be an Oculus competitor but for industry applications. I'm confident that consumer-grade AR/VR for anything but enthusiasts is at least a couple of device generations away.

whamlastxmas 7y ago

Can't even visit because it's trying to redirect me through some ad tracking url. Wonder if it's just me

O_H_E 7y ago
works fine with ublock for me
lewisj489 7y ago
Same
yodon 7y ago
you might try https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-unveils-new-intelligent-devices-solutions-enterprise/ https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-unve...
neonate 7y ago
http://archive.is/grv32 http://archive.is/grv32
- whamlastxmas 7y ago
  Thanks

dna_polymerase 7y ago

The only place I see such devices are highly polished demos to show the 'capabilities of AR/VR'. I've never seen such headsets used for anything even remotely useful (not considering gaming as extremely useful). I think the AR/VR craze is just here because we have nothing really new at the moment and investors want to pour money into something.

jackbrookes 7y ago
I run psychology experiments (motor control/spatial decision making) in VR and and its been a gamechanger in the last few years. Create your experiments completely in software to allow them to copied, modified, and distributed much more easily.
- matthewwiese 7y ago
  That is an absolutely fascinating application that I've never considered before. One could design all sorts of experiments, not just exclusively spatial reasoning. Imagine allowing a class of undergraduate students to participate in a version of Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment and draw their own conclusions as to potential flaws in its methodology. Or, as a philosophy student: allow students to engage in a real life rendition of Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment, where a student "competes" against his or her classmates and various versions of text generation algorithms from simple Markov chain generators, to OpenAI's GPT-2 and beyond.
- netcan 7y ago
  Interesting. Anywhere I can see more on this?
  - jackbrookes 7y ago
    Here's my work so far. https://github.com/immersivecognition/unity-experiment-framework https://github.com/immersivecognition/unity-experiment-frame... https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2Fs13428-019-01242-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2Fs13428-019-01242... There are also some older papers by Loomis et al. https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03200735 https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03200735

plink 7y ago

Will it come with Superfish installed?

garmaine 7y ago

No 6DOF controllers. That’s a pretty big weakness when it comes to interacting with AR objects.

taneq 7y ago

I wonder how this will play out with IP, given that Lenovo has been manufacturing a Windows Mixed Reality headset using Microsoft's VR/AR tech? They'd have to tread very carefully to avoid stepping on any MS patents etc. with inside-out tracking. Also, once again (as with Valve vs. HTC) we see the pattern playing out: 1) Platform owner develops new tech to be used on their platform, tries to foster an ecosystem 2) Third parties develop products based on the tech 3) Third parties launch competing platform because in the end, platforms are more profitable than hardware 4) Market is fragmented and we can't have nice things

yumraj 7y ago
This is how it will play out: 1) MS will sue Lenovo. 2) China will threaten MS with consequences including no access to China market. 3) MS will withdraw the lawsuit and lick its wounds.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  Maybe, but China makes up a very tiny fraction of msft revenue. The only reason they would give in to threats from China would be if they believe that in the future the piracy problem in China will go away for them.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  From my 9 years working in Microsoft China, I think Lenovo, Microsoft, and China all have a very good relationship. I’d be very surprised if Microsoft took action against Lenovo, I would be astounded if they went anywhere near where the Chinese government would admonish them.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised here if Microsoft was even intentionally lending the IP. Microsoft doesn't want to be the sole hardware vendor in a category, so encouraging HoloLens clones is probably somewhere on their explicit agenda.
- nbevans 7y ago