8 ms·

This can be true, but orchestra is a performance act. If I look at it as a business, I don't see anything wrong in giving higher value to more attractive perfor

This can be true, but orchestra is a performance act. If I look at it as a business, I don't see anything wrong in giving higher value to more attractive performers. On the other hand it's important how much higher value they get (and the multiple round audition when only one of the rounds is blind makes sense).

leereeves 8y ago
That's essentially saying the orchestra should cater to the audience's prejudices, and could be used to justify any prejudice.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  That's how entertainment industry works though?
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Indeed, if it doesn’t it doesn’t make any money and disappears unless it gets subsidies. So the WNBA and orchestras get subsidised and can have professionals whereas without subsidy their losses would force them out of existence in short order.
    - leereeves 8y ago
      And orchestras do get subsidies because society feels they have value even if a cabaret would earn more money. Certainly a segment of the entertainment industry earns money by catering to the worst aspects of human nature, but that's not the whole industry.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 8y ago
    The majority of people involved in the industry are not visible to the audience.
  - atoav 8y ago
    Yeah but what is the point of having culture when it isn’t allowed to change views, give new perspectives and so on. Also: Give me the best orchestra. I don’t go to the concert to gaze at a bunch of beuatiful penguins and ladies in dresses. I go there to listen to music. If they are good I don’t give a damn about their looks.
    - EForEndeavour 8y ago
      Visual appearance is indisputably part of the orchestral experience, otherwise they'd play out of sight (to reduce distractions from the audience) in comfortable clothing.
      - atoav 8y ago
        Well sonic waves travel with the line of sight, if you wanna get a direct signal, they will have to sit there either way. And you want to see them playing ans performing. Do they need to look really pretty to do that? Not necessarilly. Some of the best classical musicians are not beauties at all.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  > the orchestra should cater to the audience's prejudices An orchestra must give the audience what the audience expects. Is just an expensive entertainment act.
  - replyguy912 8y ago
    Well, what your typcal symphony orchestra audience wants is a mix of challenging (for the performs & listeners) pieces and the well-known standards. Stray too far either way and it's a miss. It not just entertainment for a lot of people, unless you consider all cultural events "expensive entertainment acts".
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    For diverse values of "the audience."
nabla9 8y ago
You make a good point. Of course the justification fits to the sex differences as well. You should hire the gender that makes music performance more enjoyable for your audience. In fact, maybe the goal should be to find how much gender bias is customer preference try to achieve that.
simion314 8y ago
The problem in real world is that anyone has a bias, there are people you instantly like or dislike and there is no objective thing so you end up liking people that are like you and reject people that are different.
ezoe 8y ago
Hire a bunch of good looking actor models and let them pretend to play instruments while playing recorded music for maximum value.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Pop music anyone? All in music industry can be fake, including music. All except fans.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    With streaming platforms, even fans (as measured by various analytics) are fake.
atq2119 8y ago
Individual members of a classical orchestra are not really visible to the audience though. They're not necessarily hidden, but they're generally too far away for looks to matter very much (except possibly in cases of extreme disfiguration).
- jacquesm 8y ago
  And even then the result can be mindblowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY Not exactly a classical orchestra, but it serves well to illustrate the point.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    The difference between classical and jazz musicians points to a deeper conversation about diversity. Classical musicians are a cog in a big musical machine, so they are almost by definition less diverse. There's no room in a classical orchestra for a pianist who can't reach the far ends of the keyboard (Michel Petrucciani), there's no room for a guitarist with two-and-a-half working fingers on his fretting hand (Django Reinhardt), there's no room for a singer with a completely unique vocal range (Jimmy Scott). Jazz is more amicable to diversity than classical music on a fundamental level, because it's based on improvisation and unique personal expression. If you're physically unable to play the same way as everyone else, you're pretty much useless to a classical orchestra but you may well become a pioneer in jazz. Some obstacles to diversity can't be overcome with blind auditions and quotas and sensitivity training. Some environments are lacking in diversity because they are structurally incompatible with diversity; they can't have diversity retrofitted on to them, but need to be reformed from the ground up.
    - NotableAlamode 8y ago
      Classical music is fine as it is, no need to change. Why should being based on improvisation and unique personal expression be the be-all-and-end-all of analysis? Not everybody wants to play / hear improvised music.
fenomas 8y ago
An orchestra could be run that way, sure. But surely it's implicit that any orchestra that's interested in blind auditions is trying to do the exact opposite of what you've described.

leereeves 8y ago

That's essentially saying the orchestra should cater to the audience's prejudices, and could be used to justify any prejudice.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
That's how entertainment industry works though?
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Indeed, if it doesn’t it doesn’t make any money and disappears unless it gets subsidies. So the WNBA and orchestras get subsidised and can have professionals whereas without subsidy their losses would force them out of existence in short order.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    And orchestras do get subsidies because society feels they have value even if a cabaret would earn more money. Certainly a segment of the entertainment industry earns money by catering to the worst aspects of human nature, but that's not the whole industry.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 8y ago
  The majority of people involved in the industry are not visible to the audience.
- atoav 8y ago
  Yeah but what is the point of having culture when it isn’t allowed to change views, give new perspectives and so on. Also: Give me the best orchestra. I don’t go to the concert to gaze at a bunch of beuatiful penguins and ladies in dresses. I go there to listen to music. If they are good I don’t give a damn about their looks.
  - EForEndeavour 8y ago
    Visual appearance is indisputably part of the orchestral experience, otherwise they'd play out of sight (to reduce distractions from the audience) in comfortable clothing.
    - atoav 8y ago
      Well sonic waves travel with the line of sight, if you wanna get a direct signal, they will have to sit there either way. And you want to see them playing ans performing. Do they need to look really pretty to do that? Not necessarilly. Some of the best classical musicians are not beauties at all.
pvaldes 8y ago
> the orchestra should cater to the audience's prejudices An orchestra must give the audience what the audience expects. Is just an expensive entertainment act.
- replyguy912 8y ago
  Well, what your typcal symphony orchestra audience wants is a mix of challenging (for the performs & listeners) pieces and the well-known standards. Stray too far either way and it's a miss. It not just entertainment for a lot of people, unless you consider all cultural events "expensive entertainment acts".
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  For diverse values of "the audience."

nabla9 8y ago

You make a good point. Of course the justification fits to the sex differences as well. You should hire the gender that makes music performance more enjoyable for your audience. In fact, maybe the goal should be to find how much gender bias is customer preference try to achieve that.

simion314 8y ago

The problem in real world is that anyone has a bias, there are people you instantly like or dislike and there is no objective thing so you end up liking people that are like you and reject people that are different.

ezoe 8y ago

Hire a bunch of good looking actor models and let them pretend to play instruments while playing recorded music for maximum value.

pvaldes 8y ago
Pop music anyone? All in music industry can be fake, including music. All except fans.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  With streaming platforms, even fans (as measured by various analytics) are fake.

atq2119 8y ago

Individual members of a classical orchestra are not really visible to the audience though. They're not necessarily hidden, but they're generally too far away for looks to matter very much (except possibly in cases of extreme disfiguration).

jacquesm 8y ago
And even then the result can be mindblowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY Not exactly a classical orchestra, but it serves well to illustrate the point.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  The difference between classical and jazz musicians points to a deeper conversation about diversity. Classical musicians are a cog in a big musical machine, so they are almost by definition less diverse. There's no room in a classical orchestra for a pianist who can't reach the far ends of the keyboard (Michel Petrucciani), there's no room for a guitarist with two-and-a-half working fingers on his fretting hand (Django Reinhardt), there's no room for a singer with a completely unique vocal range (Jimmy Scott). Jazz is more amicable to diversity than classical music on a fundamental level, because it's based on improvisation and unique personal expression. If you're physically unable to play the same way as everyone else, you're pretty much useless to a classical orchestra but you may well become a pioneer in jazz. Some obstacles to diversity can't be overcome with blind auditions and quotas and sensitivity training. Some environments are lacking in diversity because they are structurally incompatible with diversity; they can't have diversity retrofitted on to them, but need to be reformed from the ground up.
  - NotableAlamode 8y ago
    Classical music is fine as it is, no need to change. Why should being based on improvisation and unique personal expression be the be-all-and-end-all of analysis? Not everybody wants to play / hear improvised music.

fenomas 8y ago

An orchestra could be run that way, sure. But surely it's implicit that any orchestra that's interested in blind auditions is trying to do the exact opposite of what you've described.