6 ms·

I like the German solution for dealing with glass bottles: rather than recycling, they are made to be washed and reused. You pay a deposit when you buy a bottl

by donw 7y ago

I like the German solution for dealing with glass bottles: rather than recycling, they are made to be washed and reused. You pay a deposit when you buy a bottle of tasty beverage, and some time later, can take those bottles back to the grocery store. There, you put your used bottles into a machine which scans each bottle, and gives you an aggregate receipt for all of the bottles you returned, which you can then use to buy goods at that store. It's a great system for encouraging reuse, and we should be doing this in the US.

YokoZar 7y ago
Most states already have a refundable deposit on recyclable containers. In practice, it functions as a tax on recyclable containers: most individuals don't reclaim the deposit unless they're harvesting cans in bulk.
- ohyeshedid 7y ago
  "Most states already have a refundable deposit on recyclable containers." That's kind of a nebulous statement, but within the OP's context; there's only 10 states that have bottle deposits. I've never personally seen a can deposit; usually the money made from collecting cans is from their scrap weight value, not any kind of deposit. Are there other container deposits I'm unaware of in the states?
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Most (all?) states with bottle deposits also charge that on cans of soda/beer as well.
    - ohyeshedid 7y ago
      You are absolutely correct; there are can deposits in those same ten states. Thank you for pointing that out.
detaro 7y ago
While I like it too, it has some issues in practice, the biggest being that it works best with standardization: E.g. there's a few common types of beer bottle, and the idea is that you can ship bottles to whatever is the closest brewery that needs bottles and they can use them. That of course breaks down if breweries do their own, custom bottles, because now you have to filter those out and ship them to their specific brewery, which a) increases processing effort and b) means shipping empty bottles over longer distances (and in the US, the distances would potentially be way larger than in Germany).
- lozenge 7y ago
  Does the world really need custom bottles though? At some points society should put its foot down and say that corporations should not be able to do anything they want without regard to the environment. It's also a great example of a coordination problem: while I'm sure no company wants to stick its neck out to become the boring bottle company, they would benefit if all companies had to standardise on bottle shapes.
  - detaro 7y ago
    If I remember correctly it was the other way around here: Basically everyone used the same bottle shapes and it worked fine, and then companies started going "hey, our branding people would really like a fancy bottle for this new product", and the setup of the entire return network wasn't done in a way that strongly-enough discouraged that. (Also a scale thing: a large brewery can afford the one-time expense of buying a big machine that can sort through tons of bottles by shape, smaller ones need to do it by hand or with simpler equipment)
- xorcist 7y ago
  Standardizing containers (not just bottles) brings a number of improvements not just for recycling but for general logistics. It's one of those things that no one is large enough to implement on their own but once it's done everyone benefits.
  - 7y ago
gmueckl 7y ago
The catch with glass bottles is that they are quite heavy compared to plastic bottles and you have to ship a lot of empty volume around when returning them to be washed and filled. I remember that there was a brief discussion once that moving the empty glass bottles might be so energy inefficient that using recyclable plastic bottles would make more sense. These kinds of soft plastic bottles are crushed immediately after taken in by the machine and thus take up much less volume on their return trip (fewer trucks with better loads). I unfortunately don't know if this claim was finally determined to be true or false.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  The real reason is marketing. Otherwise stores would just have huge tubs of different goods, and you'd fill a standard size bottle/jar, then take the goods away, then bring those standardised containers back and keep doing that until the containers wear out. If you're wealthier, the store would do the washing and refilling. French supermarkets used to do that with the cheap wine. You used to get "container" or "tub" stores in the 80s (UK) that you could buy loose product and put in your own containers. This, to me seems a better, more responsible way to do things but it means reducing the numbers of products (only 3 types of extra-virgin olive oil, how will we survive!) and removing marketing opportunities like package labelling and shape. Companies couldn't just reduce the volume of a good in a packet when prices go up nor redesign the label to hide what is [not] inside. It would be interesting to see how companies would innovate differentiation if, for example, all mobile phones came in a fixed size/shape box that couldn't use mixed media, could only use environmentally friendly dyes in the printing.
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    I would be generally in favor of reusable packaging for comsumables (not just food, but also soap, detergents, ...). Also, I often stare into supermarket shelves in dismay because some perishable items are sold in fixed container sizes far bigger than what I can comsume before it spoils. But I don't get why you would have to reduce the variety of product brands to get there. Care to elaborate? Edit: I have seen repeated news of tub stores opening up in Germany. They are very few and far inbetween, but the the that exist seem to do reasonably well.
audunw 7y ago
We used to do this extensively in Norway, even with plastic bottles. But it has recently been shut down. We've moved to use more aluminum and thinner plastic bottles, because they can be crushed at the recycling point (look up Tomra recycling machines), making it much more space efficient. Remember that the trucks transporting the bottles back to the plant have their emissions as well (for now at least). Transporting uncrushed empty bottles is inefficient too. This seems to be much better on multiple levels. It seems that many more smaller companies are on board with this recycling scheme than the re-use scheme, since re-use means that ever producer of bottled items have to agree on a very limited set of bottle sizes, and be able to handle all the logistics of accepting those bottles back. The recycling of plastic bottles in Norway is one of the most successful recycling schemes for plastic, since you get a stream of plastics of a single type. Most other recycling of plastic is worthless because you get a mix of different plastics.
- _0ffh 7y ago
  >aluminum and thinner plastic bottles [...] can be crushed These schemes are common in Germany as well, often side by side with the glass bottles. But cans really only come in single serving sizes, and some people are wary about plastic bottles.
  - EForEndeavour 7y ago
    > and some people are wary about plastic bottles Are people worried about potential health effects of plastic leaching into the contents, or something else?
    - _0ffh 7y ago
      Yes, originally mostly concerns about Bisphenol A [1], later also it's substitutes. That, plus the more recent reports about microplastic pollution [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Health_effects [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics
  - 7y ago
lupire 7y ago
Are you sure they are efficiently reused, and not just faux-recycled as discussed in this thread, subsidized by the taxpayers on the back end? That's the concern parent is raising.
woliveirajr 7y ago
Beer bottles in Brazil are the same for all brands, and for a long time all marketing was done solely on the label, not in the bottle itself.

by donw 7y ago

YokoZar 7y ago

Most states already have a refundable deposit on recyclable containers. In practice, it functions as a tax on recyclable containers: most individuals don't reclaim the deposit unless they're harvesting cans in bulk.

ohyeshedid 7y ago
"Most states already have a refundable deposit on recyclable containers." That's kind of a nebulous statement, but within the OP's context; there's only 10 states that have bottle deposits. I've never personally seen a can deposit; usually the money made from collecting cans is from their scrap weight value, not any kind of deposit. Are there other container deposits I'm unaware of in the states?
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Most (all?) states with bottle deposits also charge that on cans of soda/beer as well.
  - ohyeshedid 7y ago
    You are absolutely correct; there are can deposits in those same ten states. Thank you for pointing that out.

detaro 7y ago

While I like it too, it has some issues in practice, the biggest being that it works best with standardization: E.g. there's a few common types of beer bottle, and the idea is that you can ship bottles to whatever is the closest brewery that needs bottles and they can use them. That of course breaks down if breweries do their own, custom bottles, because now you have to filter those out and ship them to their specific brewery, which a) increases processing effort and b) means shipping empty bottles over longer distances (and in the US, the distances would potentially be way larger than in Germany).

lozenge 7y ago
Does the world really need custom bottles though? At some points society should put its foot down and say that corporations should not be able to do anything they want without regard to the environment. It's also a great example of a coordination problem: while I'm sure no company wants to stick its neck out to become the boring bottle company, they would benefit if all companies had to standardise on bottle shapes.
- detaro 7y ago
  If I remember correctly it was the other way around here: Basically everyone used the same bottle shapes and it worked fine, and then companies started going "hey, our branding people would really like a fancy bottle for this new product", and the setup of the entire return network wasn't done in a way that strongly-enough discouraged that. (Also a scale thing: a large brewery can afford the one-time expense of buying a big machine that can sort through tons of bottles by shape, smaller ones need to do it by hand or with simpler equipment)
xorcist 7y ago
Standardizing containers (not just bottles) brings a number of improvements not just for recycling but for general logistics. It's one of those things that no one is large enough to implement on their own but once it's done everyone benefits.
- 7y ago

gmueckl 7y ago

The catch with glass bottles is that they are quite heavy compared to plastic bottles and you have to ship a lot of empty volume around when returning them to be washed and filled. I remember that there was a brief discussion once that moving the empty glass bottles might be so energy inefficient that using recyclable plastic bottles would make more sense. These kinds of soft plastic bottles are crushed immediately after taken in by the machine and thus take up much less volume on their return trip (fewer trucks with better loads). I unfortunately don't know if this claim was finally determined to be true or false.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
The real reason is marketing. Otherwise stores would just have huge tubs of different goods, and you'd fill a standard size bottle/jar, then take the goods away, then bring those standardised containers back and keep doing that until the containers wear out. If you're wealthier, the store would do the washing and refilling. French supermarkets used to do that with the cheap wine. You used to get "container" or "tub" stores in the 80s (UK) that you could buy loose product and put in your own containers. This, to me seems a better, more responsible way to do things but it means reducing the numbers of products (only 3 types of extra-virgin olive oil, how will we survive!) and removing marketing opportunities like package labelling and shape. Companies couldn't just reduce the volume of a good in a packet when prices go up nor redesign the label to hide what is [not] inside. It would be interesting to see how companies would innovate differentiation if, for example, all mobile phones came in a fixed size/shape box that couldn't use mixed media, could only use environmentally friendly dyes in the printing.
- gmueckl 7y ago
  I would be generally in favor of reusable packaging for comsumables (not just food, but also soap, detergents, ...). Also, I often stare into supermarket shelves in dismay because some perishable items are sold in fixed container sizes far bigger than what I can comsume before it spoils. But I don't get why you would have to reduce the variety of product brands to get there. Care to elaborate? Edit: I have seen repeated news of tub stores opening up in Germany. They are very few and far inbetween, but the the that exist seem to do reasonably well.

audunw 7y ago

We used to do this extensively in Norway, even with plastic bottles. But it has recently been shut down. We've moved to use more aluminum and thinner plastic bottles, because they can be crushed at the recycling point (look up Tomra recycling machines), making it much more space efficient. Remember that the trucks transporting the bottles back to the plant have their emissions as well (for now at least). Transporting uncrushed empty bottles is inefficient too. This seems to be much better on multiple levels. It seems that many more smaller companies are on board with this recycling scheme than the re-use scheme, since re-use means that ever producer of bottled items have to agree on a very limited set of bottle sizes, and be able to handle all the logistics of accepting those bottles back. The recycling of plastic bottles in Norway is one of the most successful recycling schemes for plastic, since you get a stream of plastics of a single type. Most other recycling of plastic is worthless because you get a mix of different plastics.

_0ffh 7y ago
>aluminum and thinner plastic bottles [...] can be crushed These schemes are common in Germany as well, often side by side with the glass bottles. But cans really only come in single serving sizes, and some people are wary about plastic bottles.
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  > and some people are wary about plastic bottles Are people worried about potential health effects of plastic leaching into the contents, or something else?
  - _0ffh 7y ago
    Yes, originally mostly concerns about Bisphenol A [1], later also it's substitutes. That, plus the more recent reports about microplastic pollution [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Health_effects [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics
- 7y ago

lupire 7y ago

Are you sure they are efficiently reused, and not just faux-recycled as discussed in this thread, subsidized by the taxpayers on the back end? That's the concern parent is raising.

woliveirajr 7y ago

Beer bottles in Brazil are the same for all brands, and for a long time all marketing was done solely on the label, not in the bottle itself.