4 ms·

To be a company that's operationally mature enough to list on an exchange they're likely of the size of a company that could IPO on NYSE or Nasdaq. I don't thi

by jorts 7y ago

To be a company that's operationally mature enough to list on an exchange they're likely of the size of a company that could IPO on NYSE or Nasdaq. I don't think this will suddenly allow a flurry of startups to suddenly become public on a different exchange.

miohtama 7y ago
What is a flurry startup and what is a mature company is relative. For example, Amazon originally IPO'ed in 1999 after raising only 10M USD. Especially since the last financial crisis over regulation has hindered SMEs access to the public markets. Being a public company means that you can often raise money on better terms. If only large enterprises can access good money, then SMEs and indirectly innovation is hurt. EU has realized this and is now trying to make SME listing easier (mostly through de-regulation). > Currently, out of the 20 million SMEs in Europe, only 3,000 are listed on stock-exchanges. "We want to change this," said Valdis Dombrovskis, EC vice-president responsible for financial services: "We propose rules that will make it easier for SMEs to access to a wide range of funding at all stages of their development and to raise capital on public markets." http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1568_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1568_en.htm https://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/sme-financing.24fl/ https://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/sme-financing.24fl/
- jorts 7y ago
  I meant operationally mature as in they have the financial controls, auditing and reporting to be public. That's not trivial for a company to do, especially a startup.
  - miohtama 7y ago
    It is not trivial, but it is not unheard of. There is a fixed minimum cost on the compliance and it must offset the better price you get from public money or reputational benefits of being public. The trick is make sure that this cost is low as possible, but still ensuring the markets' integrity and fairness. * Quality information is available for investors to make rational investment decisions * Information is available fairly - no insider trading
    - baybal2 7y ago
      > still ensuring the markets' integrity and fairness. Existing reporting requirements does not ensure markets' integrity and fairness in much of the world, US included. I think, to some extend, the presumption of truthfulness in financial reporting is even giving edge to bad players, and penalises "boring" businesses that have nothing to show but dividends, and a track record paying them. It is much easier to "pool the wool" with some fancy paid off analyst reporting for a tech business with dubious repute than say a concrete factory.
- baybal2 7y ago
  There were times in India and Pakistan when every major city had a stock exchange. Pakistan held to tradition longer than India, and owners of 3 largest stock exchanges merged them into Karachi stock exchange, and later PSX only in 2016. In Pakistan, most listed businesses are much more "boring" than ones in US. Concrete factories, brick makers, seedling producers, farms. Regulations on disclosure are near nil, but locals care not for that as few buy shares for anything but dividends and a good track record paying them. I myself vehemently oppose the idea of collective ownership of means of production, which public companies embody, but I do think that there is a visible "skew" in US with regards to business liquidity: all kinds of pets.com have a go, while clearly not bad businesses reliably making money have to be sold at discounts that will be considered big even by developing countries standards.
  - mises 7y ago
    > I myself vehemently oppose the idea of collective ownership of means of production, which public companies embody I wouldn't call this "public" ownership, as the "public" does not own a company. Investors own a company, the pool of investors is simply enlarged such that the public may invest.
    - baybal2 7y ago
      In my understanding, collective ownership !== public ownership and is just anything where the amount of owners is > 1
      - k_sh 7y ago
        I've always taken "public ownership" to imply "publicly-traded company", which means John Q. Public can call up his broker and buy some shares in the company. This in contrast to privately-held companies, which can and do have many owners, but whose owners are acquired through partnership, investment, key employees within the company, and M&A - but not through the sale of securities.
      - adamsea 7y ago
        Does that mean you oppose all companies or business which are owned by more than a single person?
- adventured 7y ago
  > For example, Amazon originally IPO'ed in 1999 after raising only 10M USD. Small correction, Amazon's IPO was in May 1997. The $10m in venture capital is correct though ($2m common, $8.2m preferred). They of course had a relatively small business, which matches with the $10m in VC and times. $15.7m in sales for fiscal 1996. Their sales ramp is impressive considering the Web at the time: $875k in 1Q96, $2.2m in 2Q96, $4.1m in 3Q96, $8.5m in 4Q96, $16m in 1Q97. They raised $50x million in the IPO, and had a $560 million valuation at the end of the first day of trading. Their S1: https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=1244088 https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=124...
  - miohtama 7y ago
    Thank you! This was long long time ago and I did not fact check my memories.
  - eries 7y ago
    I cite this fact all the time when talking to people about how capital markets have changed dramatically. But even I find it hard to remember the actual numbers. They are so mind boggling by modern standards. It wasn’t that long ago!
wmf 7y ago
There's a huge narrative to the contrary, saying that companies like Uber are waiting to IPO until long after they are operationally mature.
- munk-a 7y ago
  Just to note, Uber just IPO'd today.
rando444 7y ago
Your comment assumes that all investors are the same and all companies share the same goal.

by jorts 7y ago

miohtama 7y ago

What is a flurry startup and what is a mature company is relative. For example, Amazon originally IPO'ed in 1999 after raising only 10M USD. Especially since the last financial crisis over regulation has hindered SMEs access to the public markets. Being a public company means that you can often raise money on better terms. If only large enterprises can access good money, then SMEs and indirectly innovation is hurt. EU has realized this and is now trying to make SME listing easier (mostly through de-regulation). > Currently, out of the 20 million SMEs in Europe, only 3,000 are listed on stock-exchanges. "We want to change this," said Valdis Dombrovskis, EC vice-president responsible for financial services: "We propose rules that will make it easier for SMEs to access to a wide range of funding at all stages of their development and to raise capital on public markets." http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1568_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1568_en.htm https://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/sme-financing.24fl/ https://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/sme-financing.24fl/

jorts 7y ago
I meant operationally mature as in they have the financial controls, auditing and reporting to be public. That's not trivial for a company to do, especially a startup.
- miohtama 7y ago
  It is not trivial, but it is not unheard of. There is a fixed minimum cost on the compliance and it must offset the better price you get from public money or reputational benefits of being public. The trick is make sure that this cost is low as possible, but still ensuring the markets' integrity and fairness. * Quality information is available for investors to make rational investment decisions * Information is available fairly - no insider trading
  - baybal2 7y ago
    > still ensuring the markets' integrity and fairness. Existing reporting requirements does not ensure markets' integrity and fairness in much of the world, US included. I think, to some extend, the presumption of truthfulness in financial reporting is even giving edge to bad players, and penalises "boring" businesses that have nothing to show but dividends, and a track record paying them. It is much easier to "pool the wool" with some fancy paid off analyst reporting for a tech business with dubious repute than say a concrete factory.
baybal2 7y ago
There were times in India and Pakistan when every major city had a stock exchange. Pakistan held to tradition longer than India, and owners of 3 largest stock exchanges merged them into Karachi stock exchange, and later PSX only in 2016. In Pakistan, most listed businesses are much more "boring" than ones in US. Concrete factories, brick makers, seedling producers, farms. Regulations on disclosure are near nil, but locals care not for that as few buy shares for anything but dividends and a good track record paying them. I myself vehemently oppose the idea of collective ownership of means of production, which public companies embody, but I do think that there is a visible "skew" in US with regards to business liquidity: all kinds of pets.com have a go, while clearly not bad businesses reliably making money have to be sold at discounts that will be considered big even by developing countries standards.
- mises 7y ago
  > I myself vehemently oppose the idea of collective ownership of means of production, which public companies embody I wouldn't call this "public" ownership, as the "public" does not own a company. Investors own a company, the pool of investors is simply enlarged such that the public may invest.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    In my understanding, collective ownership !== public ownership and is just anything where the amount of owners is > 1
    - k_sh 7y ago
      I've always taken "public ownership" to imply "publicly-traded company", which means John Q. Public can call up his broker and buy some shares in the company. This in contrast to privately-held companies, which can and do have many owners, but whose owners are acquired through partnership, investment, key employees within the company, and M&A - but not through the sale of securities.
    - adamsea 7y ago
      Does that mean you oppose all companies or business which are owned by more than a single person?
adventured 7y ago
> For example, Amazon originally IPO'ed in 1999 after raising only 10M USD. Small correction, Amazon's IPO was in May 1997. The $10m in venture capital is correct though ($2m common, $8.2m preferred). They of course had a relatively small business, which matches with the $10m in VC and times. $15.7m in sales for fiscal 1996. Their sales ramp is impressive considering the Web at the time: $875k in 1Q96, $2.2m in 2Q96, $4.1m in 3Q96, $8.5m in 4Q96, $16m in 1Q97. They raised $50x million in the IPO, and had a $560 million valuation at the end of the first day of trading. Their S1: https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=1244088 https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=124...
- miohtama 7y ago
  Thank you! This was long long time ago and I did not fact check my memories.
- eries 7y ago
  I cite this fact all the time when talking to people about how capital markets have changed dramatically. But even I find it hard to remember the actual numbers. They are so mind boggling by modern standards. It wasn’t that long ago!

wmf 7y ago

There's a huge narrative to the contrary, saying that companies like Uber are waiting to IPO until long after they are operationally mature.

munk-a 7y ago
Just to note, Uber just IPO'd today.

rando444 7y ago

Your comment assumes that all investors are the same and all companies share the same goal.