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Apple gives their users forms of control, but not necessarily the forms that HN commenters agree with. For example, this week I was explaining to someone how d

Apple gives their users forms of control, but not necessarily the forms that HN commenters agree with. For example, this week I was explaining to someone how different the iOS (possible) and Android (impossible) processes are for finding and removing spying crap if you don’t know how to operate technology very well. I showed them Settings > General > Profiles on my phone, explained briefly that I’d opted in to them, and that they wouldn’t have that because they weren’t a developer. They had it! For a coupon email spam account. That they’d tried out a year ago and were now unable to completely remove. They removed it immediately. No, we can’t root iOS devices reliably (rarely at all), but in exchange, non-technical users gain control over their device to a degree that rootable devices make impossible. It’s not about whether you have control, it’s about whether you have the degree of control you desire, and whether that control provides the needs you desire. I, an advanced technical user, use iOS because I can prove efficiently that it’s unharmed. I consciously gave up a rooted device with a keyboard for it. I have a 50% typo rate and I miss a lot of things. But the need for safety is paramount, or else everyone protected by my MFA tokens is at risk from attacks so severe I can’t even fathom.

jeswin 8y ago
Different people want different things. I can't use iOS because it doesn't meet my needs: T9 Dialer, Homescreen customization, Guest mode/Multiuser (not Guided Access), better notifications, real Firefox, better multi-tasking etc. Add: I also think it's unfair to compare the security capabilities of a handful of Apple phones with the countless Android phones out there. People have the option of buying Android phones from Google, which have comparable security guarantees as any iOS device (while allowing root access to people who actually desire that).
- floatingatoll 8y ago
  If it can be rooted by you, it can be rooted by someone close to you, at which point it can be modified to install competent spyware tooling that hides that it’s rooted. Women who have been stalked by their exes will be quite familiar with the risk this poses. So will people who need Tor Browser to keep them safe from their governments. I’d accept this as fine if I had to order it rooted from Google in hardware, so that the bootloader could show an unskippable “This is a rooted device and lacks critical security protections against malware attacks” warning. Sadly, that’s not currently on offer. While your needs are legitimate, offering rooting in software on consumer-facing devices is more dangerous than they can afford. To me, the harm that comes to others isn’t worth it.
  - readams 8y ago
    Rooting your phone wipes the data on it. It's actually a very secure model and preserves the user choice.
    - floatingatoll 8y ago
      What does that have to do with whether or not the bootloader shows a clear and obvious warning of danger?
      - theamk 8y ago
        It means it cannot be secretly "rooted by someone close to you", or any one else for that matter. If you grab your phone one day, and it is completely wiped, you will notice this right away. At this point, you can investigate -- this can be as simple as looking at screen during the boot; or non-trivial key combo, as Samsung requires [0]. If indicator shows non-tripped, you can be sure the phone is not rooted. I agree that this is more complex than Apple, but in practice, it never happens -- I had a few phones slowly fail on me, and they never spontaneously self-wiped. So if your non-technical relative wants to get Android phone, just tell them: "Phone suddenly forgetting every single account is VERY BAD and a sign of EVIL HACKERS. If this happens, call me right right away from a landline, do not use this phone at all". And they will be as secure as if they had Apple. [0] https://support.samsungknox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013562087-What-is-a-Knox-Warranty-Bit-and-how-is-it-triggered- https://support.samsungknox.com/hc/en-us/articles/1150135620...
        floatingatoll 8y ago
        I used to regularly backup and restore an Android phone after rooting it, because I was updating carrier files and testing out different releases. I’m sure that the capability to take a backup and restore it is available to spyware software developers. If I have competent software in-hand to use the root access to copy over non-HSM internals, then this argument is void. And for non-technical folks, the same spyware devices that police use to make perfect replicas could just as easily restore them with a spyware infection. They’d lose HSM-stored things like fingerprints and NFC payment tokens, but people shrug off things like that and just go set it up again or enter their passwords when a pop up appears. If this Knox throws up an unavoidable, non-technical warning in that scenario, that openly cautions them not to enter any passwords and to take their phone to the authorities, then I will happily accept that things are better than I expected for Android today.
theamk 8y ago
> No, we can’t root iOS devices reliably (rarely at all), but in exchange, non-technical users gain control over their device to a degree that rootable devices make impossible. Can you elaborate on that? I read up on Apple's configuration profiles and they sound like Android's device administrators -- which can be easily removed from Settings -> Security -> Device Administrators [0] [0] https://www.redmondpie.com/how-to-check-for-hidden-device-administrators-on-android-and-remove-them/ https://www.redmondpie.com/how-to-check-for-hidden-device-ad...
- floatingatoll 8y ago
  In very brief: Apple allows only this; Android allows both this, and rooting. See another branch of this thread for further details.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

jeswin 8y ago

Different people want different things. I can't use iOS because it doesn't meet my needs: T9 Dialer, Homescreen customization, Guest mode/Multiuser (not Guided Access), better notifications, real Firefox, better multi-tasking etc. Add: I also think it's unfair to compare the security capabilities of a handful of Apple phones with the countless Android phones out there. People have the option of buying Android phones from Google, which have comparable security guarantees as any iOS device (while allowing root access to people who actually desire that).

floatingatoll 8y ago
If it can be rooted by you, it can be rooted by someone close to you, at which point it can be modified to install competent spyware tooling that hides that it’s rooted. Women who have been stalked by their exes will be quite familiar with the risk this poses. So will people who need Tor Browser to keep them safe from their governments. I’d accept this as fine if I had to order it rooted from Google in hardware, so that the bootloader could show an unskippable “This is a rooted device and lacks critical security protections against malware attacks” warning. Sadly, that’s not currently on offer. While your needs are legitimate, offering rooting in software on consumer-facing devices is more dangerous than they can afford. To me, the harm that comes to others isn’t worth it.
- readams 8y ago
  Rooting your phone wipes the data on it. It's actually a very secure model and preserves the user choice.
  - floatingatoll 8y ago
    What does that have to do with whether or not the bootloader shows a clear and obvious warning of danger?
    - theamk 8y ago
      It means it cannot be secretly "rooted by someone close to you", or any one else for that matter. If you grab your phone one day, and it is completely wiped, you will notice this right away. At this point, you can investigate -- this can be as simple as looking at screen during the boot; or non-trivial key combo, as Samsung requires [0]. If indicator shows non-tripped, you can be sure the phone is not rooted. I agree that this is more complex than Apple, but in practice, it never happens -- I had a few phones slowly fail on me, and they never spontaneously self-wiped. So if your non-technical relative wants to get Android phone, just tell them: "Phone suddenly forgetting every single account is VERY BAD and a sign of EVIL HACKERS. If this happens, call me right right away from a landline, do not use this phone at all". And they will be as secure as if they had Apple. [0] https://support.samsungknox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013562087-What-is-a-Knox-Warranty-Bit-and-how-is-it-triggered- https://support.samsungknox.com/hc/en-us/articles/1150135620...
      - floatingatoll 8y ago
        I used to regularly backup and restore an Android phone after rooting it, because I was updating carrier files and testing out different releases. I’m sure that the capability to take a backup and restore it is available to spyware software developers. If I have competent software in-hand to use the root access to copy over non-HSM internals, then this argument is void. And for non-technical folks, the same spyware devices that police use to make perfect replicas could just as easily restore them with a spyware infection. They’d lose HSM-stored things like fingerprints and NFC payment tokens, but people shrug off things like that and just go set it up again or enter their passwords when a pop up appears. If this Knox throws up an unavoidable, non-technical warning in that scenario, that openly cautions them not to enter any passwords and to take their phone to the authorities, then I will happily accept that things are better than I expected for Android today.

theamk 8y ago

> No, we can’t root iOS devices reliably (rarely at all), but in exchange, non-technical users gain control over their device to a degree that rootable devices make impossible. Can you elaborate on that? I read up on Apple's configuration profiles and they sound like Android's device administrators -- which can be easily removed from Settings -> Security -> Device Administrators [0] [0] https://www.redmondpie.com/how-to-check-for-hidden-device-administrators-on-android-and-remove-them/ https://www.redmondpie.com/how-to-check-for-hidden-device-ad...

floatingatoll 8y ago
In very brief: Apple allows only this; Android allows both this, and rooting. See another branch of this thread for further details.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]