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I get that is part of bitcoin, not the protocol failing, personal irresponsibility etc etc. But I’m seeing less and less a justification for the deliberate lac

by beager 7y ago

I get that is part of bitcoin, not the protocol failing, personal irresponsibility etc etc. But I’m seeing less and less a justification for the deliberate lack of security in the bitcoin world. So a hack like this happens. Regardless of how it happened or who’s to blame, why continue to tolerate bitcoin? What is it giving you that’s worth the enormous mountain of precaution that you need to take to secure yourself?

__s 7y ago
I wouldn't say it was an enormous mountain of precaution for me to store my btc in my own wallet. It's kind of the point
- kalleboo 7y ago
  It's in an offline wallet, right? And backed-up somehow incase the hardware wallet dies. And that backup made with an known-clean, freshly-installed, offline computer to avoid malware stealing it when you're making the backup.
  - __s 7y ago
    Nope, but it's still more secure than an exchange I expect to lose more from btc's value crashing than some elite conspiracy of hackers having sabotaged my hardware & somehow working out my private key which isn't stored in plaintext If I was holding a really great worth of btc, going the full mile of cold storage would make sense. At that point you're invested, quit kidding around
- beager 7y ago
  But you had to know to do that. Semi-related, it’s wild to me that the best practice for a digital currency is the functional equivalent of keeping your money in your mattress.
  - mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
    I used to be a supporter of bitcoin but then I gave it some long thought and realized bitcoin will never make it as intended. The very essence that makes bitcoin appealing is what keeps it from being user friendly and functioning safely. Once you try to fudge with that, you undermine everything bitcoin is supposed to address. There is just no way around it.
dijit 7y ago
Little bit of a preface; I dislike bitcoin because of scaling reasons and reasons due to power consumption per transaction. So don’t assume I’m a supporter. That said, how is this different from having physical cash in a bank, or a digital ledger that pushes money elsewhere and is only caught much later. The answer is only that it’s an immature global system, there’s no (current) list of black market coins, which is entirely possible to create- meaning hacked bitcoins would not re-enter circulation and the value diminishes wildly. The effect you’re seeing currently is due to an immature currency market which has never been held to the same standard as our fiat currency market. It also hasn’t been battle tested over hundreds of years. Of course it is deficient. I’m not excusing them, I wish that people with little to no security chops would not be involved in financial matters, but a lot of these companies sprung up out of hobby projects many years ago and one could argue that the industry they’re in has changed around them. It’s not as big a deal if someone steals 4000 bitcoins if they’re worth 20c each.
- rabbitonrails 7y ago
  Blacklisting certain coins is a form of centralization.
  - 7373737373 7y ago
    Why? Everyone can decide freely which coins to accept. Regardless, by law, accepting these coins would already constitute possession of stolen goods, and would therefore be illegal. The "legal fungibility" is already zero.
    - tty2300 7y ago
      Bitcoins are not specific units. They are more like water, infinitely dividable. If you stole a bucket of water and then pour it in to your swimming pool and then distribute the content of your swimming pool to 100 different people, who has the bucket of stolen water?. Bitcoin also doesn't track the movement of specific coins because they don't exist. Its just a list of transactions. A wallet with $100 in it gets $5 in and then sends out $5. How do you decide if this was the $5 that went in? Is it first in first out?
andrius4669 7y ago
>why continue to tolerate bitcoin? you aren't obliged to use it, are you?
alcio 7y ago
> What is it giving you that's worth the enormous montain of precaution that you need to take to secure yourself? It's giving you precisely the opportunity the Binance hackers seized: doing transactions that no one else wants done. You don't have to ask permission nor trust anyone but Bitcoin itself.
CaptainZapp 7y ago
What do you expect when just about any two bit shyster with a slick PowerPoint presentation can create a crypto exchange too? Mt.Gox should have been a general warning, which, apparently wasn't heeded too much.
hombre_fatal 7y ago
It's p2p digital cash. Precisely the beauty and simplicity of it lines both edges of the sword.
- beager 7y ago
  But so is Venmo. I also really like Venmo and think it’s beautiful and simple. Unless you’re talking about something else.
  - 34r45sdg 7y ago
    Venmo isnt peer to peer, its a central service in which two users (clients) talk to a server. Its practically the opposite of p2p.
    - beager 7y ago
      My point is that a lay consumer doesn't know that, so the description of it above doesn't mean anything to consumers that they can't get from Venmo.
      - lawn 7y ago
        As long as it works, you're right. The difference is what happens when it doesn't. What happens when Venmo decides you cannot buy porn or marijuana or whatever, you simply can't. Or what happens when you can't get a bank account? You're locked out of the ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why cryptocurrencies exists. To provide a system for when nothing else works.
        root_axis 7y ago
        > Or what happens when you can't get a bank account? You're locked out of the ecosystem. Cryptocurrency is totally impractical without a bank account. Meeting random people in the street to trade cash for bitcoins is about the shittiest and most dangerous UX I've ever heard of.
empath75 7y ago
Because it’s useful for selling drugs, paying ransoms, money laundering and other nefarious purposes.

by beager 7y ago

__s 7y ago

I wouldn't say it was an enormous mountain of precaution for me to store my btc in my own wallet. It's kind of the point

kalleboo 7y ago
It's in an offline wallet, right? And backed-up somehow incase the hardware wallet dies. And that backup made with an known-clean, freshly-installed, offline computer to avoid malware stealing it when you're making the backup.
- __s 7y ago
  Nope, but it's still more secure than an exchange I expect to lose more from btc's value crashing than some elite conspiracy of hackers having sabotaged my hardware & somehow working out my private key which isn't stored in plaintext If I was holding a really great worth of btc, going the full mile of cold storage would make sense. At that point you're invested, quit kidding around
beager 7y ago
But you had to know to do that. Semi-related, it’s wild to me that the best practice for a digital currency is the functional equivalent of keeping your money in your mattress.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
  I used to be a supporter of bitcoin but then I gave it some long thought and realized bitcoin will never make it as intended. The very essence that makes bitcoin appealing is what keeps it from being user friendly and functioning safely. Once you try to fudge with that, you undermine everything bitcoin is supposed to address. There is just no way around it.

dijit 7y ago

Little bit of a preface; I dislike bitcoin because of scaling reasons and reasons due to power consumption per transaction. So don’t assume I’m a supporter. That said, how is this different from having physical cash in a bank, or a digital ledger that pushes money elsewhere and is only caught much later. The answer is only that it’s an immature global system, there’s no (current) list of black market coins, which is entirely possible to create- meaning hacked bitcoins would not re-enter circulation and the value diminishes wildly. The effect you’re seeing currently is due to an immature currency market which has never been held to the same standard as our fiat currency market. It also hasn’t been battle tested over hundreds of years. Of course it is deficient. I’m not excusing them, I wish that people with little to no security chops would not be involved in financial matters, but a lot of these companies sprung up out of hobby projects many years ago and one could argue that the industry they’re in has changed around them. It’s not as big a deal if someone steals 4000 bitcoins if they’re worth 20c each.

rabbitonrails 7y ago
Blacklisting certain coins is a form of centralization.
- 7373737373 7y ago
  Why? Everyone can decide freely which coins to accept. Regardless, by law, accepting these coins would already constitute possession of stolen goods, and would therefore be illegal. The "legal fungibility" is already zero.
  - tty2300 7y ago
    Bitcoins are not specific units. They are more like water, infinitely dividable. If you stole a bucket of water and then pour it in to your swimming pool and then distribute the content of your swimming pool to 100 different people, who has the bucket of stolen water?. Bitcoin also doesn't track the movement of specific coins because they don't exist. Its just a list of transactions. A wallet with $100 in it gets $5 in and then sends out $5. How do you decide if this was the $5 that went in? Is it first in first out?

andrius4669 7y ago

>why continue to tolerate bitcoin? you aren't obliged to use it, are you?

alcio 7y ago

> What is it giving you that's worth the enormous montain of precaution that you need to take to secure yourself? It's giving you precisely the opportunity the Binance hackers seized: doing transactions that no one else wants done. You don't have to ask permission nor trust anyone but Bitcoin itself.

CaptainZapp 7y ago

What do you expect when just about any two bit shyster with a slick PowerPoint presentation can create a crypto exchange too? Mt.Gox should have been a general warning, which, apparently wasn't heeded too much.

hombre_fatal 7y ago

It's p2p digital cash. Precisely the beauty and simplicity of it lines both edges of the sword.

beager 7y ago
But so is Venmo. I also really like Venmo and think it’s beautiful and simple. Unless you’re talking about something else.
- 34r45sdg 7y ago
  Venmo isnt peer to peer, its a central service in which two users (clients) talk to a server. Its practically the opposite of p2p.
  - beager 7y ago
    My point is that a lay consumer doesn't know that, so the description of it above doesn't mean anything to consumers that they can't get from Venmo.
    - lawn 7y ago
      As long as it works, you're right. The difference is what happens when it doesn't. What happens when Venmo decides you cannot buy porn or marijuana or whatever, you simply can't. Or what happens when you can't get a bank account? You're locked out of the ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why cryptocurrencies exists. To provide a system for when nothing else works.
      - root_axis 7y ago
        > Or what happens when you can't get a bank account? You're locked out of the ecosystem. Cryptocurrency is totally impractical without a bank account. Meeting random people in the street to trade cash for bitcoins is about the shittiest and most dangerous UX I've ever heard of.

empath75 7y ago

Because it’s useful for selling drugs, paying ransoms, money laundering and other nefarious purposes.