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I'm one of the software engineers that decided I will not work in US at all in any possible future. Medical system, visa procedures and visa problems were major

I'm one of the software engineers that decided I will not work in US at all in any possible future. Medical system, visa procedures and visa problems were major deciding factors on my decision to move and work in Europe instead.

saiya-jin 7y ago
Add high criminality and overall police state. Definitely a place of much less true freedom compared to any western europe (unless you define freedom as hoarding tons of guns for when 'they' come). Directly contributing to mass murder of some poor guys defending their home country from foreign invasion for power and greed half around the globe with your taxes. Much more free time to have a life. And so on and on and on. We as software devs can literally spin a globe, close eyes and point randomly and simply move there. Some places are harder than others, but its still a breeze compared to many other professions if you have some good experience. Why would anyone go to US these days baffles me. The real quality of life is much harder to get there.
- torgian 7y ago
  Hell. I left the US and got a job as a remote developer for a company in Japan (and since have started my own business). I make less than I would in the States but I’m happier overall.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Bad argument, since 'they' as in the state came pretty often in Europe. I don't give anything on patriotism, but I admire the US for their freedom and I understand the need to have it for the society they are. Yeah, the security paranoia of the US in the last 20 years is abhorrent, dangerous, costly, infantile and probably against their own values, no further explanation needed. But I don't think there are better countries concerning civil rights. No European state comes close. Not Sweden, not Norway, Switzerland maybe for some people... I live in Europe and regularly think about working in the US. Wouldn't want to go to Silicon Valley though.
  - bildung 7y ago
    > But I don't think there are better countries concerning civil rights. No European state comes close. Not Sweden, not Norway, Switzerland maybe for some people... I've read that often, but don't really think it's true. Compared to many European countries some of the more obvious civil rights problems are things like gay rights, minorities are systematically prevented from voting (through gerrymandering and other voting district decisions), the highest prison population per capita in the world (combine that with loss of voting rights and disproportionate share of minorities you get additional minority voter suppression), lack of whistleblower protections etc. Freedom House has a civil rights ranking where the United States only land at rank 51 of 210 countries: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou.... The US only get to the 38th position in their freedom of press index: https://freedomhouse.org/report/table-country-scores-fotp-2017 https://freedomhouse.org/report/table-country-scores-fotp-20...
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      The focus on minorities seems always a bit strange to me and a bad start to argue for more civil liberties. Everyone should be equal under the law and I talk about civil liberties that are enshrined in law. That doesn't mean minorities are not at a disadvantage or that everyone being equal under the law describes reality, but the best way to help with that are universal human rights and their strict enforcement. Minorities are too often used as a shield to their disadvantage. Using minorities as an argument to restrict speech for example is a very common example and plainly wrong. I think the rankings in the US are correct and not really in the top class, but I do believe that the US ends its paranoia trip at some point. Maybe wishful thinking. Germany has some better rankings but really lacks in freedom when compared to the US.
      - bildung 7y ago
        > The focus on minorities seems always a bit strange to me and a bad start to argue for more civil liberties. Everyone should be equal under the law and I talk about civil liberties that are enshrined in law. People belabor the minority point because that is the cornerstone of a real democracy. You don't have a proper democracy if you have free elections - but only for the right kind of people. The US voting system right now is designed to exclude certain kinds of people. This something most other industrialized countries don't do. That is a main reason for the low ranking in the list I linked. > Germany has some better rankings but really lacks in freedom when compared to the US. Care to qualify what kind of freedoms Germany is lacking compared to the US?

saiya-jin 7y ago

Add high criminality and overall police state. Definitely a place of much less true freedom compared to any western europe (unless you define freedom as hoarding tons of guns for when 'they' come). Directly contributing to mass murder of some poor guys defending their home country from foreign invasion for power and greed half around the globe with your taxes. Much more free time to have a life. And so on and on and on. We as software devs can literally spin a globe, close eyes and point randomly and simply move there. Some places are harder than others, but its still a breeze compared to many other professions if you have some good experience. Why would anyone go to US these days baffles me. The real quality of life is much harder to get there.

torgian 7y ago
Hell. I left the US and got a job as a remote developer for a company in Japan (and since have started my own business). I make less than I would in the States but I’m happier overall.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Bad argument, since 'they' as in the state came pretty often in Europe. I don't give anything on patriotism, but I admire the US for their freedom and I understand the need to have it for the society they are. Yeah, the security paranoia of the US in the last 20 years is abhorrent, dangerous, costly, infantile and probably against their own values, no further explanation needed. But I don't think there are better countries concerning civil rights. No European state comes close. Not Sweden, not Norway, Switzerland maybe for some people... I live in Europe and regularly think about working in the US. Wouldn't want to go to Silicon Valley though.
- bildung 7y ago
  > But I don't think there are better countries concerning civil rights. No European state comes close. Not Sweden, not Norway, Switzerland maybe for some people... I've read that often, but don't really think it's true. Compared to many European countries some of the more obvious civil rights problems are things like gay rights, minorities are systematically prevented from voting (through gerrymandering and other voting district decisions), the highest prison population per capita in the world (combine that with loss of voting rights and disproportionate share of minorities you get additional minority voter suppression), lack of whistleblower protections etc. Freedom House has a civil rights ranking where the United States only land at rank 51 of 210 countries: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou.... The US only get to the 38th position in their freedom of press index: https://freedomhouse.org/report/table-country-scores-fotp-2017 https://freedomhouse.org/report/table-country-scores-fotp-20...
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    The focus on minorities seems always a bit strange to me and a bad start to argue for more civil liberties. Everyone should be equal under the law and I talk about civil liberties that are enshrined in law. That doesn't mean minorities are not at a disadvantage or that everyone being equal under the law describes reality, but the best way to help with that are universal human rights and their strict enforcement. Minorities are too often used as a shield to their disadvantage. Using minorities as an argument to restrict speech for example is a very common example and plainly wrong. I think the rankings in the US are correct and not really in the top class, but I do believe that the US ends its paranoia trip at some point. Maybe wishful thinking. Germany has some better rankings but really lacks in freedom when compared to the US.
    - bildung 7y ago
      > The focus on minorities seems always a bit strange to me and a bad start to argue for more civil liberties. Everyone should be equal under the law and I talk about civil liberties that are enshrined in law. People belabor the minority point because that is the cornerstone of a real democracy. You don't have a proper democracy if you have free elections - but only for the right kind of people. The US voting system right now is designed to exclude certain kinds of people. This something most other industrialized countries don't do. That is a main reason for the low ranking in the list I linked. > Germany has some better rankings but really lacks in freedom when compared to the US. Care to qualify what kind of freedoms Germany is lacking compared to the US?