12 ms·

A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

176 points by gfmio 7y ago

raverbashing 7y ago
> is associated with significant and long-lasting changes in clients’ personalities, especially reductions in the trait of Neuroticism and increases in Extraversion. Yes. That's how it should be.
- WilliamEdward 7y ago
  Yes, why is the article implying there is something philosophically bad about a changed personality? Ideally, if someone was a serial killer, it would be objectively good to change their personality wouldn't it? Changing one's personality doesn't take away 'me-ness' anymore than it reveals your ideal self.
  - fuzzbuzz 7y ago
    Imo no personality is ever wrong, except for when the brain/mind is influenced by a disease. I am not saying that the actions of a serial killer will ever be approved, but the notion that one "type" of personality is more good than any other is strictly cultural. At the same time, I agree with you that it is not bad to change a personality, if it is the owner of that personality that initiate the change.
- phkahler 7y ago
  Well since a common thing therapists do is (covert) social skills training, increased extroversion makes perfect sense. The was recently another one linked here that said long term therapy can increase neuroticism. My biggest complaint is that most of their studies suffer from survivor bias. They ignore people who drop out or have negative outcomes (there is overlap there).
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    My biggest complaint is studies being inadequately placebo-controlled. It's not just that studies often have no control group or a blatantly different control condition (waitlist, pill placebo), it's that there's no consensus on how psychotherapy works. That means there's no agreed-upon approach for sham psychotherapy, and even assertions that it's impossible to do because virtually any therapy-like experience already contains most of the beneficial elements (cf. [1]). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory
yomly 7y ago
What even is "personality" - leaving aside technical and dictionary definitions, if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences, can you ever truly not be you? I pose this because I encounter resistance from people to the notion that they can change themselves, lest they lose some notion of their "self", and personality is often equated with "self" from my experience.
- AndrewDucker 7y ago
  "can you ever truly not be you" It's a question of degree. There's a clear line from me yesterday to me today, with a massive amount of similarity. I'm comfortable about my wants and needs and how my life is set up, because the "me"s of the past set things up, and I'm similar enough to them to fit into the niche they worked on. That personality can change over time - I'm not who I was when I was 20, and I'll be different again when I'm 60. But with a slow set of changes that's easy enough to cope with - and indeed, people generally don't even notice the changes. But if I woke up tomorrow with a vastly different personality, the change having happened all at once, it would affect all of my relationships, my working situation, my home life, etc. It's wouldn't be a slow transformation from one person to another, it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people.
  - yomly 7y ago
    > it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people. That's a salient observation, but it's a definitely a curious aversion and possibly linked to a similar underlying thought pattern that "growth mindset" vs "fixed mindset" tries to capture: Notions like "I can become more confident in everything I do" and "I can learn to be better with people" terrified a friend as some kind of type of desire to deceive others with some inauthentic persona that was disingenuous because you had changed your personality
    - AndrewDucker 7y ago
      I guess it depends on how core you view certain parts of your personality as being. If "you" is "an introvert who isn't good with people", then "learning to be good with people" must be some kind of faking it. Rather than a change in view/approach which actually makes you like people and not be afraid of them.
29athrowaway 7y ago
Psychology is not falsifiable and therefore not a science.
- megous 7y ago
  Yes, it's a helping profession. The goal is to form models of mind to be used to help people feel/live better. Not to understand the brain. That's why you can have multitudes of wildly conflicting theories and schools of psychotherapy, where most of them work to achieve the goal of wellbeing, but none of which achieve understanding of how human brain works. (of course, some pretend they do, and try to portray this to the patients - as if the ideology the school of therpay holds is the truth about the human brain) There's nice discussion of this in the book "Health & Suffering in America by R. T. Fancher"
  - ntoll 7y ago
    Beautifully put. Thank you.
  - Retra 7y ago
    Psychiatry is not the same thing as psychology.
    - megous 7y ago
      Well, obvious. For context - the article is about therapy. The book is mostly about therapeutic schools too. Also I said nothing about psychiatry. The book is mostly about historical context of psychological treatment in america and a critique of when people in helping professions jump from "our techniques help people" to "therefore the theoretical basis for our techniques is the truth"
  - feelthedata 7y ago
    > That's why you can have multitudes of wildly conflicting theories and schools of psychotherapy, where most of them work to achieve the goal of wellbeing, but none of which achieve understanding of how human brain works. (of course, some pretend they do, and try to portray this to the patients - as if the ideology the school of therpay holds is the truth about the human brain) There's not yet a Wikipedia page for "Computational Psychiatry". I guess that very definable category of psychiatry doesn't like to publish. Are transference and countertransference of traits like extraversion a result of the (indeed widely varying) therapeutic methods or the result of just spending some quality time together rewarding self-focus and insight? There may be some quantifiable rejections of guesstulative models of cognition (and personality!) available due to advances in neuroimaging which are enabling computational neuroscience (which does have a Wikipedia page for it) Computational neuroscience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_neuroscience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_neuroscience > Computational neuroscience (also known as theoretical neuroscience or mathematical neuroscience) is a branch of neuroscience which employs mathematical models, theoretical analysis and abstractions of the brain to understand the principles that govern the development, structure, physiology and cognitive abilities of the nervous system. Clean Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Language > As James Lawley and Penny Tompkins describe it, Grove realized many clients were describing their symptoms in metaphors drawn from the exact words of previous therapists, instead of from their own experience There, that should help with the disinhibition and extraversion.
qzw 7y ago
Maybe it’s little discussed because that’s the intended effect? A lot of simple things can create positive changes in aspects of your personality, such as meditation, a consistent exercise routine, enough sleep, etc.
- themodelplumber 7y ago
  Exactly. And think about stressors, too, from a simple weekly to-do list or new years resolution to the maintenance of a basic friendship. These are all going to create additional anxiety and affect the unconscious drive toward personal change. I used to coach a client who emphasized a lack of neurosis and anxiety as if it was a key selling point for her personality. But she also noted that she was experiencing frequent interventions by family and work colleagues over her behavior, and she complained of having no friends. Within days I found I had to intervene myself! Her communications were truly difficult to experience. In order to "do" social humanity, we need a certain amount of constant adjustment (which causes some stress and anxiety), and it doesn't have to drive us crazy. If it's not there, society quickly finds ways to push back or protect itself.
Pamar 7y ago
I would like to link to a my old post here regarding this very topic (even if the original comment was about something else): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- specialist 7y ago
  That's worth a repost. Jodorowsky, suffering, identity. Just from your summary, that sounds spot on. Added to my reading list. Thanks.
  - Pamar 7y ago
    Unfortunately I cannot confirm the original title: I am 1000km from my library. But Jodorowsky often offers valuable insights.
lkadr 7y ago
After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven't found it yet, it requires more effort.
- sjg007 7y ago
  One thing that may help is to label your depression as it's own independent thing. Something that exists outside of your core self. Even give it a name, say Dave. Then when you are feeling depressed say, hey that's just Dave, why is Dave feeling this way? Is there another perspective that Dave isn't seeing etc...
  - onemoresoop 7y ago
    This mind trick works for some and at its core it's the same idea of compartmentalizing. There are different ways to get to compartmentalizing and yes, it does help clear the mind, reduce anxiety/mind chatter by grouping and labeling things/thoughts somehow (by personal choice) such that when something arises to the conscious mind it can be located, acknowledged and dealt with at a later time if needed.
    - fwip 7y ago
      Yep, this helps me with my anxiety and depression. Being able to recognize "I'm feeling anxious, and these thoughts are a product of that anxiety" allows me to process them and move on. It doesn't immediately relieve that anxiety, but it keeps me from spiraling downward, and lets me know that I should take care of myself until I feel better.
- calewis 7y ago
  As someone who suffers from depression and has gone to therapy for over 5 years (I am also on medication), please try and force yourself to go. It will most likely change your life for the better, if not, what have you wasted? A bit of money and a few hours of your time? It could make you better at dealing with your depression and, as a consequence, make you feel happier. You might need to try a few different therapists until you find one you like, and it's not a quick fix either. Think of it like getting (physically) fit, you need to keep at it - maybe for years. You might not also get better in a linear curve, it's up and down, you just have to stick with it. Therapy has helped me to know myself better, understand why I do what I do and feel the way I do, and, as cheesy as it sounds; learn to accept my limitations. It's changed my life and the life of many of my friends. You deserve to be happy, everyone does. Please try it - if it doesn't I will buy you a beer/coffee.
annews24 7y ago
Ehhh http://Annews24.com http://Annews24.com
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  Is this just a site of 100% clickbait affiliate articles passed as a news site?
annews24 7y ago
Wow https://annews24.com https://annews24.com Annews24.com
specialist 7y ago
I've changed my personality a few times. Twice purposefully, that I know of. First time, having exhausted all other ideas for improvement, I decided to fake being happy, using ridiculously positive words for every situation. "How are you today?" "Phenomenal!" While initially it was kinda sarcastic, at some point it became sincere. Roughly three years later, I woke up one day said "Phenomenal!" to myself, and was surprised that I meant it. The change was so slow, subtle, I didn't sense the transition. Years later, I found the book How You Talk Changes How You Think. So apparently I'm not the only person with this experience. Also, I had read up about social cognition (swarm intelligence), how we learn from each other. At the time, there was some research showing that we individuals conform and change our minds without realizing it or any memory of it. (Scary!) Second time, I ran for public office. I usually play to win, regardless of the odds. So I decided to become like the winners. I changed my outward personality. How I stand, smile, eye contact, etc. I stopped swearing (vulgarity). I learned to how to do small talk, vague noncommitmental positive agreement. (eg "Wow, that's a great idea, tell me more.", per Guy Kawasaki per Jean-Louis Gassée). I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert. I've also changed personalty a few times unwillingly. I was proscribed high dosage prednisone & cyclosporine for years. They made me insane. Suicidal. Mania. Super erratic. It took me years to "detox", become psychologically normal. I had a very rough childhood. I remember being loving and affectionate as a toddler. But I became angry, distrustful and distant. So. All these wild swings of personality. I honestly don't know who am I. When I try to describe myself (dating profiles), I can only describe how I think I behave, at this time. Is that accurate? Stable? No idea. I also don't know how much aging and experience factor in. And I don't know where the lines are between personality, character, and daily behavior. If I could travel back in time, I'd love to be able to administer myself personality assessments over time, maybe chart the changes.
- petra 7y ago
  >> I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert. That's interesting. Could you please share more ?
  - 7y ago
tokai 7y ago
Personality is not that stable to begin with.[0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/
- orthecreedence 7y ago
  Right, even before I start therapy, my personality changed all the time. I'd say the only constant is how I experience things. Everything else seems to be fluid.
FailMore 7y ago
I had eight years of therapy and it totally transformed my life, it was rather odd but it was only when my therapist and I started using dreams in non-traditional way (as set out here https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz) that things started to rapidly improve.
- RickS 7y ago
  This was a really fascinating paper! The first part feels intuitively true – that dreams are instructional surfacings of situational classes that require attention. The bit about PTSD dreams being "mercy of environment" rather than having situational autonomy was really interesting. It's a shame the paper cuts off right there, but I'm glad they at least dropped the teaser, it's a thread I'm going to pull. If you have any more recommended reading on this, I'd love to check it out / talk about this. Email's in profile. If you want to dig more into the "anxiety/avoidance mental responses are fundamentally biological" aspect: I and others on HN recommend "The Body Keeps The Score".
llamataboot 7y ago
This is true. In my experience you are literally learning how to grow "new selves".
DoreenMichele 7y ago
The research also leaves unanswered a big question for the future: just how is psychotherapy enacting these personality trait changes? A large part of "personality" is about social interaction. If you have always been treated terribly, you won't know how to interact in a not terrible fashion, even if you run into people who aren't going to treat you terribly. Therapy can help you see that you have patterns of behavior shaped by negative social experiences and those patterns of behavior basically presume that everyone will behave in a particular way towards you and that way is not a nice way to behave. It can help you see that how you behave helps keep the negative social climate alive in your life and you have the power to behave differently going forward. It can help you sort out "Some people will do bad things to me and some won't. It's okay to make judgement calls about how to interact with different social situations for my own benefit." instead of going with some default learned behavior that is no longer serving you well. Metaphorically, it's a little like growing up in a very bad neighborhood where everyone carries a gun. Carrying a gun and being quick to show it to let people know you aren't going to be an easy victim is a matter of course. It's the only way to survive. Then you move to a nicer neighborhood where no one owns a gun. You continue flashing your gun anytime you feel threatened by anything to let people know you aren't an easy mark. They react negatively to you signaling that you are prepared to defend yourself with deadly force if necessary. In their world, only crazy people routinely talk about being prepared to use deadly force. That's simply not how things get settled in their world. You go to a therapist and he tells you "So, have you noticed that you left the neighborhood you grew up in and no one around you even carries a gun? Have you thought about trying to find some means to enforce your personal boundaries without pointing a gun at everyone you meet? Why don't you try that and see if people react different to you." So you go to a party and don't pull out your gun. And people are weirdly nice to you, nicer than they have ever been. And it's food for thought and you discuss the incident with your therapist the next time you see them. Your entire social life improves and you start to trust that maybe your therapist actually has good ideas and they aren't just trying to convince you to lay down your arms just to make it easier to take advantage of you, even though that's the standard you grew up with.
dannyism 7y ago
If traits like "neuroticism", which would result from the very mental illnesses that psychotherapy promises to address, constitute personality, isn't it obvious that psychotherapy should change it? Why is anyone acting surprised?
- camelNotation 7y ago
  Neuroticism in the context of personality is not necessarily the same as having a mental illness or being "neurotic." There is some crossover between the behavior of someone we would describe as "neurotic" and someone with "high neuroticism" on the big five, but as a matter of personality, high neuroticism simply means that you worry more and tend to see things in a more negative, realistic way. This carries obvious advantages in certain contexts as long as it is tempered and doesn't get out of hand. It has lots of disadvantages too, especially in the job market, but all personality traits have a downside if you score too highly. If you are too open, you can fail to weigh and measure risks properly. If you are too agreeable, people will walk all over you. If you are too extroverted, it can create dependency issues and alienation. If you are too conscientious, you can end up so consumed by the minutiae of life that you miss important, big picture ideas.
Nav_Panel 7y ago
The idea of therapy and its effects on personality is actually something discussed in psychoanalytic literature (noting that psychoanalysis !== "therapy" in most cases), often framed as an ethical question, "when is it permissible to perform psychoanalysis?" Some quotes from a book on Lacan: > what exactly does ‘curing’ mean? Is it simply the disappearance of a symptom, or does one aim to change the underlying personality structure that produced it and in which it is inscribed? Is this at all achievable, and if it is, is it desirable? If it is neither achievable nor desirable, then where should curing stop – at what boundary line? And finally, is it always a good thing even to begin the process, when you don’t know where to end it or whether you will be leaving behind a damaged and less effective Subject? > By the early 1960s, Lacan felt that forcing people to confront the truth about themselves, the meaning of their symptoms and the hitherto repressed elements in their unconscious, had consequences too serious to be undertaken with anything less than the greatest caution. > I shall finish with an example of a patient who, at the end of her treatment, seemed quite aware of the loss she would suffer as a result of being cured. The young woman, who had been severely anorexic, talked about a dream during one of her last sessions. In it, she had on a necklace on which there was a great, pointed spike or barb. The curious thing was that this necklace was under her skin, within her body, and she wanted to remove it – to get it out of her. She somehow managed to tug it out, but as the spike came out of her body, it left a gaping hole, and she was bleeding. The analyst said in agreement with her unconscious knowledge: ‘Yes, you will be left with a hole. And you will be bleeding.’ The patient understood immediately and perfectly the meaning of both: that the giving up of her symptom would indeed leave a hole in the structure of her Subject, and she would face the new reality of menstrual bleeding. If this illustration leaves one with many questions, that is as Lacan would have wished.
- Kenji 7y ago
  Well, I think it is safe to say that anorexia is the worst way to deal with menstrual bleeding.
aszantu 7y ago
my depression went away after changing my diet. a ton of neurotransmitters are made in the colon and intestines. Don't stop looking for things that might improve the condition, you will know when you find something that works.
- asdf21 7y ago
  What changes did you make?
  - aszantu 7y ago
    Went keto, depression went away within a week. Switch to carnivore for financial reasons, anxiety went away.
ineedasername 7y ago
Isn't this the expected result? Some aspect of your behavior or thought process (key components of your personality) are in some way running counter to your happiness and/or ability to function in some way. When therapy is effective, that is a de facto change to personality.
throwaway55554 7y ago
Isn't this the point? If I suffered trauma as a child, my amygdala is over developed and I am in constant fight, flight or freeze. Therapy would give me tools to deal with this and thus, change my personality.
jl2718 7y ago
Causal link not established. Placebo not tested. Compare therapy against random assignment to six weeks of baking class. Then get back to me.
- michaelkeenan 7y ago
  The review includes 35 experimental studies with control groups. See table 3: "Experimental Personality Change Effect Size Estimates Comparing Treatment to Control".
WhitneyLand 7y ago
Direct brain d]stimulation - Is there a tldr on therapies and electrically stimulate the brain? I know there were interesting clues, but is there a consensus on what it's prospects look like as of 6/2019?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Grustaf 7y ago
I thought that was the purpose of therapy

176 points by gfmio 7y ago

> is associated with significant and long-lasting changes in clients’ personalities, especially reductions in the trait of Neuroticism and increases in Extraversion. Yes. That's how it should be.

WilliamEdward 7y ago
Yes, why is the article implying there is something philosophically bad about a changed personality? Ideally, if someone was a serial killer, it would be objectively good to change their personality wouldn't it? Changing one's personality doesn't take away 'me-ness' anymore than it reveals your ideal self.
- fuzzbuzz 7y ago
  Imo no personality is ever wrong, except for when the brain/mind is influenced by a disease. I am not saying that the actions of a serial killer will ever be approved, but the notion that one "type" of personality is more good than any other is strictly cultural. At the same time, I agree with you that it is not bad to change a personality, if it is the owner of that personality that initiate the change.
phkahler 7y ago
Well since a common thing therapists do is (covert) social skills training, increased extroversion makes perfect sense. The was recently another one linked here that said long term therapy can increase neuroticism. My biggest complaint is that most of their studies suffer from survivor bias. They ignore people who drop out or have negative outcomes (there is overlap there).
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  My biggest complaint is studies being inadequately placebo-controlled. It's not just that studies often have no control group or a blatantly different control condition (waitlist, pill placebo), it's that there's no consensus on how psychotherapy works. That means there's no agreed-upon approach for sham psychotherapy, and even assertions that it's impossible to do because virtually any therapy-like experience already contains most of the beneficial elements (cf. [1]). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory

yomly 7y ago

What even is "personality" - leaving aside technical and dictionary definitions, if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences, can you ever truly not be you? I pose this because I encounter resistance from people to the notion that they can change themselves, lest they lose some notion of their "self", and personality is often equated with "self" from my experience.

AndrewDucker 7y ago
"can you ever truly not be you" It's a question of degree. There's a clear line from me yesterday to me today, with a massive amount of similarity. I'm comfortable about my wants and needs and how my life is set up, because the "me"s of the past set things up, and I'm similar enough to them to fit into the niche they worked on. That personality can change over time - I'm not who I was when I was 20, and I'll be different again when I'm 60. But with a slow set of changes that's easy enough to cope with - and indeed, people generally don't even notice the changes. But if I woke up tomorrow with a vastly different personality, the change having happened all at once, it would affect all of my relationships, my working situation, my home life, etc. It's wouldn't be a slow transformation from one person to another, it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people.
- yomly 7y ago
  > it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people. That's a salient observation, but it's a definitely a curious aversion and possibly linked to a similar underlying thought pattern that "growth mindset" vs "fixed mindset" tries to capture: Notions like "I can become more confident in everything I do" and "I can learn to be better with people" terrified a friend as some kind of type of desire to deceive others with some inauthentic persona that was disingenuous because you had changed your personality
  - AndrewDucker 7y ago
    I guess it depends on how core you view certain parts of your personality as being. If "you" is "an introvert who isn't good with people", then "learning to be good with people" must be some kind of faking it. Rather than a change in view/approach which actually makes you like people and not be afraid of them.

29athrowaway 7y ago

Psychology is not falsifiable and therefore not a science.

megous 7y ago
Yes, it's a helping profession. The goal is to form models of mind to be used to help people feel/live better. Not to understand the brain. That's why you can have multitudes of wildly conflicting theories and schools of psychotherapy, where most of them work to achieve the goal of wellbeing, but none of which achieve understanding of how human brain works. (of course, some pretend they do, and try to portray this to the patients - as if the ideology the school of therpay holds is the truth about the human brain) There's nice discussion of this in the book "Health & Suffering in America by R. T. Fancher"
- ntoll 7y ago
  Beautifully put. Thank you.
- Retra 7y ago
  Psychiatry is not the same thing as psychology.
  - megous 7y ago
    Well, obvious. For context - the article is about therapy. The book is mostly about therapeutic schools too. Also I said nothing about psychiatry. The book is mostly about historical context of psychological treatment in america and a critique of when people in helping professions jump from "our techniques help people" to "therefore the theoretical basis for our techniques is the truth"
- feelthedata 7y ago
  > That's why you can have multitudes of wildly conflicting theories and schools of psychotherapy, where most of them work to achieve the goal of wellbeing, but none of which achieve understanding of how human brain works. (of course, some pretend they do, and try to portray this to the patients - as if the ideology the school of therpay holds is the truth about the human brain) There's not yet a Wikipedia page for "Computational Psychiatry". I guess that very definable category of psychiatry doesn't like to publish. Are transference and countertransference of traits like extraversion a result of the (indeed widely varying) therapeutic methods or the result of just spending some quality time together rewarding self-focus and insight? There may be some quantifiable rejections of guesstulative models of cognition (and personality!) available due to advances in neuroimaging which are enabling computational neuroscience (which does have a Wikipedia page for it) Computational neuroscience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_neuroscience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_neuroscience > Computational neuroscience (also known as theoretical neuroscience or mathematical neuroscience) is a branch of neuroscience which employs mathematical models, theoretical analysis and abstractions of the brain to understand the principles that govern the development, structure, physiology and cognitive abilities of the nervous system. Clean Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Language > As James Lawley and Penny Tompkins describe it, Grove realized many clients were describing their symptoms in metaphors drawn from the exact words of previous therapists, instead of from their own experience There, that should help with the disinhibition and extraversion.

qzw 7y ago

Maybe it’s little discussed because that’s the intended effect? A lot of simple things can create positive changes in aspects of your personality, such as meditation, a consistent exercise routine, enough sleep, etc.

themodelplumber 7y ago
Exactly. And think about stressors, too, from a simple weekly to-do list or new years resolution to the maintenance of a basic friendship. These are all going to create additional anxiety and affect the unconscious drive toward personal change. I used to coach a client who emphasized a lack of neurosis and anxiety as if it was a key selling point for her personality. But she also noted that she was experiencing frequent interventions by family and work colleagues over her behavior, and she complained of having no friends. Within days I found I had to intervene myself! Her communications were truly difficult to experience. In order to "do" social humanity, we need a certain amount of constant adjustment (which causes some stress and anxiety), and it doesn't have to drive us crazy. If it's not there, society quickly finds ways to push back or protect itself.

Pamar 7y ago

I would like to link to a my old post here regarding this very topic (even if the original comment was about something else): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
specialist 7y ago
That's worth a repost. Jodorowsky, suffering, identity. Just from your summary, that sounds spot on. Added to my reading list. Thanks.
- Pamar 7y ago
  Unfortunately I cannot confirm the original title: I am 1000km from my library. But Jodorowsky often offers valuable insights.

lkadr 7y ago

After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven't found it yet, it requires more effort.

sjg007 7y ago
One thing that may help is to label your depression as it's own independent thing. Something that exists outside of your core self. Even give it a name, say Dave. Then when you are feeling depressed say, hey that's just Dave, why is Dave feeling this way? Is there another perspective that Dave isn't seeing etc...
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  This mind trick works for some and at its core it's the same idea of compartmentalizing. There are different ways to get to compartmentalizing and yes, it does help clear the mind, reduce anxiety/mind chatter by grouping and labeling things/thoughts somehow (by personal choice) such that when something arises to the conscious mind it can be located, acknowledged and dealt with at a later time if needed.
  - fwip 7y ago
    Yep, this helps me with my anxiety and depression. Being able to recognize "I'm feeling anxious, and these thoughts are a product of that anxiety" allows me to process them and move on. It doesn't immediately relieve that anxiety, but it keeps me from spiraling downward, and lets me know that I should take care of myself until I feel better.
calewis 7y ago
As someone who suffers from depression and has gone to therapy for over 5 years (I am also on medication), please try and force yourself to go. It will most likely change your life for the better, if not, what have you wasted? A bit of money and a few hours of your time? It could make you better at dealing with your depression and, as a consequence, make you feel happier. You might need to try a few different therapists until you find one you like, and it's not a quick fix either. Think of it like getting (physically) fit, you need to keep at it - maybe for years. You might not also get better in a linear curve, it's up and down, you just have to stick with it. Therapy has helped me to know myself better, understand why I do what I do and feel the way I do, and, as cheesy as it sounds; learn to accept my limitations. It's changed my life and the life of many of my friends. You deserve to be happy, everyone does. Please try it - if it doesn't I will buy you a beer/coffee.

annews24 7y ago

Ehhh http://Annews24.com http://Annews24.com

nickthemagicman 7y ago
Is this just a site of 100% clickbait affiliate articles passed as a news site?

annews24 7y ago

Wow https://annews24.com https://annews24.com Annews24.com

specialist 7y ago

I've changed my personality a few times. Twice purposefully, that I know of. First time, having exhausted all other ideas for improvement, I decided to fake being happy, using ridiculously positive words for every situation. "How are you today?" "Phenomenal!" While initially it was kinda sarcastic, at some point it became sincere. Roughly three years later, I woke up one day said "Phenomenal!" to myself, and was surprised that I meant it. The change was so slow, subtle, I didn't sense the transition. Years later, I found the book How You Talk Changes How You Think. So apparently I'm not the only person with this experience. Also, I had read up about social cognition (swarm intelligence), how we learn from each other. At the time, there was some research showing that we individuals conform and change our minds without realizing it or any memory of it. (Scary!) Second time, I ran for public office. I usually play to win, regardless of the odds. So I decided to become like the winners. I changed my outward personality. How I stand, smile, eye contact, etc. I stopped swearing (vulgarity). I learned to how to do small talk, vague noncommitmental positive agreement. (eg "Wow, that's a great idea, tell me more.", per Guy Kawasaki per Jean-Louis Gassée). I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert. I've also changed personalty a few times unwillingly. I was proscribed high dosage prednisone & cyclosporine for years. They made me insane. Suicidal. Mania. Super erratic. It took me years to "detox", become psychologically normal. I had a very rough childhood. I remember being loving and affectionate as a toddler. But I became angry, distrustful and distant. So. All these wild swings of personality. I honestly don't know who am I. When I try to describe myself (dating profiles), I can only describe how I think I behave, at this time. Is that accurate? Stable? No idea. I also don't know how much aging and experience factor in. And I don't know where the lines are between personality, character, and daily behavior. If I could travel back in time, I'd love to be able to administer myself personality assessments over time, maybe chart the changes.

petra 7y ago
>> I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert. That's interesting. Could you please share more ?
- 7y ago

tokai 7y ago

Personality is not that stable to begin with.[0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/

orthecreedence 7y ago
Right, even before I start therapy, my personality changed all the time. I'd say the only constant is how I experience things. Everything else seems to be fluid.

FailMore 7y ago

I had eight years of therapy and it totally transformed my life, it was rather odd but it was only when my therapist and I started using dreams in non-traditional way (as set out here https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz) that things started to rapidly improve.

RickS 7y ago
This was a really fascinating paper! The first part feels intuitively true – that dreams are instructional surfacings of situational classes that require attention. The bit about PTSD dreams being "mercy of environment" rather than having situational autonomy was really interesting. It's a shame the paper cuts off right there, but I'm glad they at least dropped the teaser, it's a thread I'm going to pull. If you have any more recommended reading on this, I'd love to check it out / talk about this. Email's in profile. If you want to dig more into the "anxiety/avoidance mental responses are fundamentally biological" aspect: I and others on HN recommend "The Body Keeps The Score".

llamataboot 7y ago

This is true. In my experience you are literally learning how to grow "new selves".

DoreenMichele 7y ago

The research also leaves unanswered a big question for the future: just how is psychotherapy enacting these personality trait changes? A large part of "personality" is about social interaction. If you have always been treated terribly, you won't know how to interact in a not terrible fashion, even if you run into people who aren't going to treat you terribly. Therapy can help you see that you have patterns of behavior shaped by negative social experiences and those patterns of behavior basically presume that everyone will behave in a particular way towards you and that way is not a nice way to behave. It can help you see that how you behave helps keep the negative social climate alive in your life and you have the power to behave differently going forward. It can help you sort out "Some people will do bad things to me and some won't. It's okay to make judgement calls about how to interact with different social situations for my own benefit." instead of going with some default learned behavior that is no longer serving you well. Metaphorically, it's a little like growing up in a very bad neighborhood where everyone carries a gun. Carrying a gun and being quick to show it to let people know you aren't going to be an easy victim is a matter of course. It's the only way to survive. Then you move to a nicer neighborhood where no one owns a gun. You continue flashing your gun anytime you feel threatened by anything to let people know you aren't an easy mark. They react negatively to you signaling that you are prepared to defend yourself with deadly force if necessary. In their world, only crazy people routinely talk about being prepared to use deadly force. That's simply not how things get settled in their world. You go to a therapist and he tells you "So, have you noticed that you left the neighborhood you grew up in and no one around you even carries a gun? Have you thought about trying to find some means to enforce your personal boundaries without pointing a gun at everyone you meet? Why don't you try that and see if people react different to you." So you go to a party and don't pull out your gun. And people are weirdly nice to you, nicer than they have ever been. And it's food for thought and you discuss the incident with your therapist the next time you see them. Your entire social life improves and you start to trust that maybe your therapist actually has good ideas and they aren't just trying to convince you to lay down your arms just to make it easier to take advantage of you, even though that's the standard you grew up with.

dannyism 7y ago

If traits like "neuroticism", which would result from the very mental illnesses that psychotherapy promises to address, constitute personality, isn't it obvious that psychotherapy should change it? Why is anyone acting surprised?

camelNotation 7y ago
Neuroticism in the context of personality is not necessarily the same as having a mental illness or being "neurotic." There is some crossover between the behavior of someone we would describe as "neurotic" and someone with "high neuroticism" on the big five, but as a matter of personality, high neuroticism simply means that you worry more and tend to see things in a more negative, realistic way. This carries obvious advantages in certain contexts as long as it is tempered and doesn't get out of hand. It has lots of disadvantages too, especially in the job market, but all personality traits have a downside if you score too highly. If you are too open, you can fail to weigh and measure risks properly. If you are too agreeable, people will walk all over you. If you are too extroverted, it can create dependency issues and alienation. If you are too conscientious, you can end up so consumed by the minutiae of life that you miss important, big picture ideas.

Nav_Panel 7y ago

The idea of therapy and its effects on personality is actually something discussed in psychoanalytic literature (noting that psychoanalysis !== "therapy" in most cases), often framed as an ethical question, "when is it permissible to perform psychoanalysis?" Some quotes from a book on Lacan: > what exactly does ‘curing’ mean? Is it simply the disappearance of a symptom, or does one aim to change the underlying personality structure that produced it and in which it is inscribed? Is this at all achievable, and if it is, is it desirable? If it is neither achievable nor desirable, then where should curing stop – at what boundary line? And finally, is it always a good thing even to begin the process, when you don’t know where to end it or whether you will be leaving behind a damaged and less effective Subject? > By the early 1960s, Lacan felt that forcing people to confront the truth about themselves, the meaning of their symptoms and the hitherto repressed elements in their unconscious, had consequences too serious to be undertaken with anything less than the greatest caution. > I shall finish with an example of a patient who, at the end of her treatment, seemed quite aware of the loss she would suffer as a result of being cured. The young woman, who had been severely anorexic, talked about a dream during one of her last sessions. In it, she had on a necklace on which there was a great, pointed spike or barb. The curious thing was that this necklace was under her skin, within her body, and she wanted to remove it – to get it out of her. She somehow managed to tug it out, but as the spike came out of her body, it left a gaping hole, and she was bleeding. The analyst said in agreement with her unconscious knowledge: ‘Yes, you will be left with a hole. And you will be bleeding.’ The patient understood immediately and perfectly the meaning of both: that the giving up of her symptom would indeed leave a hole in the structure of her Subject, and she would face the new reality of menstrual bleeding. If this illustration leaves one with many questions, that is as Lacan would have wished.

Kenji 7y ago
Well, I think it is safe to say that anorexia is the worst way to deal with menstrual bleeding.

aszantu 7y ago

my depression went away after changing my diet. a ton of neurotransmitters are made in the colon and intestines. Don't stop looking for things that might improve the condition, you will know when you find something that works.

asdf21 7y ago
What changes did you make?
- aszantu 7y ago
  Went keto, depression went away within a week. Switch to carnivore for financial reasons, anxiety went away.

ineedasername 7y ago

Isn't this the expected result? Some aspect of your behavior or thought process (key components of your personality) are in some way running counter to your happiness and/or ability to function in some way. When therapy is effective, that is a de facto change to personality.

throwaway55554 7y ago

Isn't this the point? If I suffered trauma as a child, my amygdala is over developed and I am in constant fight, flight or freeze. Therapy would give me tools to deal with this and thus, change my personality.

jl2718 7y ago

Causal link not established. Placebo not tested. Compare therapy against random assignment to six weeks of baking class. Then get back to me.

michaelkeenan 7y ago
The review includes 35 experimental studies with control groups. See table 3: "Experimental Personality Change Effect Size Estimates Comparing Treatment to Control".

WhitneyLand 7y ago

Direct brain d]stimulation - Is there a tldr on therapies and electrically stimulate the brain? I know there were interesting clues, but is there a consensus on what it's prospects look like as of 6/2019?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Grustaf 7y ago

I thought that was the purpose of therapy