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> He said he had a lead on a job with another automaker [...] But the industry is suffering a slowdown, I wonder how much of the slowdown is caused by more and

by pif 7y ago

> He said he had a lead on a job with another automaker [...] But the industry is suffering a slowdown, I wonder how much of the slowdown is caused by more and more aggressive emission regulations. Cars used to be definitely more responsive, and they get more sluggish and more expensive to maintain with every new Euro standard published. Edit: I'm addig this to reply to some commenters. I'm not stating that car comfort is more important than public health. It's just a fact that emission regulations have pushed much fun away from the driving experience. And I honestly wonder how this impacted the car making industry.

CydeWeys 7y ago
Public health is more important than cars getting sportier. Particulate emissions are a real health hazard, causing respiratory illnesses for millions of people each year. The negative externalities of air pollution are huge, and it's not an exaggeration to say that air pollution is directly causing the deaths of 6 figures of people every year, who would otherwise not have died. Every single one of us has lungs and breathes the air around us. Stricter emissions controls are better for all of us.
- nullc 7y ago
  Fun fact: there are non-trivial differences in air quality from place to place-- that's how it's possible to estimate the impact on mortality. If you have any freedom at all in choosing where you live, air quality should be a factor.
neuronic 7y ago
Do I misinterpret you or does it sound a bit as if you value the responsiveness of your car over the emission standard which exists to protect the health of people as well as the environment? Obviously one can discuss the numbers and limits defined in the emission standard and how much sense they make but I would find it odd if someone put car performance over its negative impact on others.
- georgerobinson 7y ago
  Yes and no. Cars are less responsive than ever as manufacturers insert artificial latency into electric throttle-by-wire to reduce emissions. However, at the same time cars continue to become heavier and heavier with each new model or generation. This in itself is poor for environment because heavier vehicles must burn more fuel to accelerate at the same rate, more fuel to maintain the same speed, use more pad material to brake (and thus release more particulates) while also having increased tire wear. But for some reason the latter issue is ignored while the former is front and center. It doesn't make sense to me
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    Unfortunately in the US car size is (still) a status thing and has led to an arms race. Size is an obvious differentiator, acceleration or responsivity much less so. Your gasoline is also way too cheap.
    - georgerobinson 7y ago
      I live in the U.K, I pay $1.75 per litre.
      - Sharlin 7y ago
        Oops, sorry for assuming!
  - sacheendra 7y ago
    Safety regulations, stricter emissions regulations, drive by wire tech, crash zones and everything else petrolheads don't like about cars make them better for commuters. Even with all these features, the average increase in weight for cars of the same size has been a paltry 23kg. The weight increase of the "average car" comes from people buying SUVs, which people increasingly are. For a track day car, a cheap modern sports car like a miata, or a 1980s/90s sports car has all the characteristics you want for the price of a modern commuter car. Its just that a commuter cares more about relaxation than road feel. :-)
adrianN 7y ago
If you want a responsive car, get an EV. If you want an even more responsive vehicle, get a bicycle.
- georgerobinson 7y ago
  I would quite like to own an EV, but are still too expensive for me! I also read that the batteries do not like repeated full-throttle accelerations as it causes excessive heat build-up and accelerated degradation on the cells. To reduce this the car will often enter limp-mode before then, so it might not even be appropriate for sports/track use.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    I'm just curious what the math looks like for you with all monthly total costs accounted for? How much is the monthly loan payment on an EV plus charging costs vs the monthly loan payment on an ICE plus gas costs? How many miles do you drive per month? There are some used EVs that are available pretty affordably, and the monthly savings on gas could be substantial depending on your typical monthly mileage.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - your-nanny 7y ago
    you can buy a 2015 Nissan Leaf for a put $12-$14k on carvana. Surprised me!
    - cptskippy 7y ago
      They're going for $9k in the Southeast US.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    > I would quite like to own an EV, but are still too expensive for me! Without providing a specific use case or criteria then it's impossible to say. > I also read that the batteries do not like repeated full-throttle accelerations as it causes excessive heat build-up and accelerated degradation on the cells That's true and so is the statement "internal combustion engines used in automobiles produce heat during operation that will cause them to fail after a short period of time". But we know that ICEs don't fail because they have cooling systems, so to do EV's batteries and motors. > To reduce this the car will often enter limp-mode before then If someone said "my ICE vehicle won't allow me to red-line it and reduces my max RPMs when it's close to overheating to avoid damaging the engine" would you see that as a bad thing? Would you assume red-lining and engine overheating issues were common when driving an ICE vehicle? If not, then why do you assume such behavior is bad in an EV? While it is true that rapidly discharging batteries produces heat, it is also true that most EVs have thermal management in place and most have active temperature control systems for their battery packs. The Nissan Leaf is one of the few EVs that does not have active temperature control systems, their packs are air cooled. Also note that I said "temperature control" and not cooling, Tesla's and other EVs can actively warm their batteries to increase performance. You should read up on the Tesla Model 3's track mode to get a better understanding of what EVs are capable of: https://www.tesla.com/blog/how-track-mode-works https://www.tesla.com/blog/how-track-mode-works
AmVess 7y ago
Cars are getting more expensive, and people are keeping them longer. The average transaction price in the USA is $36,000. Even a base model economy car with financing is $25k. A nicely configured economy car will be $30k with financing. This is a lot of money for many households, and the sales prove that; fewer cars were sold last year than during the worst part of the last recession. In GM's case, not only are they going though a national downturn in sales, but their management is keen to outsource engineering to far cheaper companies overseas.
- dragandj 7y ago
  The other side of the coin is that what is considered a “a base economy car” in US would be seen as luxury house on wheels in most of the world. In Europe, most people drive 10-15K eur (including very high taxes and VAT) city cars which can carry 4-5 people quite comfortably at 120km/h. US always seemed to me quite exorbant when it comes to cars....
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    Not even other parts of the world. These US economy cars are very nice in terms of quality and features, so luxury cars are really competing for status now, not experience (except for dealership amenities). Combine that with a large used-car market, and unupgradeable infotainment systems, and it could be a tough sell.
    - Retric 7y ago
      The lines get a little blurry. The cheapest Acura (Honda’s luxury brand) starts at $25,900 which is easy to hit with any options on a Honda. Lexus starts at a more traditional 34k, but again it’s easy to get low 30’s with a few options on a Toyota.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      That is a natural progression. We could make a model T with only safety and emissions changes for pretty, lets say $5000 to give it a number. However if you buy a 7 year old car for $5000 it will have electric start, a heater (not to mention AC), a radio, likely heated seats and other luxury cars. So you are likely to not buy the base model new car. Thus all new cars need to provide luxury items, any luxury that turns out to be popular with customers quickly gets added to the base model (unless it is expensive even at scale)
LoSboccacc 7y ago
it's also that people have less disposable income. around europe at least is uncommon for full size car not to be on some lease as a company car
Aeolun 7y ago
I honestly cannot imagine this perceived slowdown is anywhere but in your mind. Much less that it affects the fun of driving for the great majority of people. Do you have any sources for that?
- pif 7y ago
  I honestly thinks you never drove a car where the throttle was directly linked to the butterfly valve. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle#Internal_combustion_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle#Internal_combustion_e...): Historically, the throttle pedal or lever acts via a direct mechanical linkage. Technically it means, that the butterfly valve of the throttle is operated by means of an arm piece, loaded by a spring. This arm is usually directly linked to the accelerator cable, and operates in accordance with the driver, who hits it. The further the pedal is pushed, the wider the throttle valve opens. Modern engines of both types (gas and diesel) are commonly drive-by-wire systems where sensors monitor the driver controls and in response a computerized system controls the flow of fuel and air. This means that the operator does not have direct control over the flow of fuel and air; the Engine Control Unit (ECU) can achieve better control in order to reduce emissions, maximize performance and adjust the engine idle to ...
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    That’s possible. The first time I drove was some 10 years ago, but in a fairly newish car. I guess it’s only a temporary issue though, as you’d get used to your cars characteristics quite fast.
- pif 7y ago
  > Much less that it affects the fun of driving for the great majority of people. Commuting never was fun. But, from time to time, when overtaking a long truck on a uphill road, you'd really like your car to work for you (as in "I need power, just for a few seconds, but I need it now!"), and not against you (as in "Please, if it is not too big an hassle for you, would you mind to try and rev the engine up a bit? Take you time, sure, but... that hairpin turn is getting closer and closer!").
smt88 7y ago
I work in the auto industry. Most consumers care more about the dash system (CarPlay, Android Auto, etc.), mileage, and size of the car than the way it drives. That's why Porsche sells SUVs.
- pif 7y ago
  > Most consumers care more about the dash system (...), mileage, and size of the car than the way it drives They care about things they can choose. They don't care about responsive cars because responsive cars do not exist. Actually, they did exist until a few years ago: they were VW! Why do you think they cheated?
  - smt88 7y ago
    > They don't care about responsive cars because responsive cars do not exist. No. If that were true, surveys would show that people are paying a premium for electric cars because of the way they handle. People mostly pay the premium for environmental and financial reasons. I have never seen marketing data suggesting that handling is a make-or-break purchase decision for the majority of consumers.
    - pif 7y ago
      > If that were true, surveys would show that people are paying a premium for electric cars because of the way they handle. Sorry, I don't agree with you. Responsiveness has been taken away from ICE cars, but EV have too many shortcomings w.r.t ICE cars: price, range, refueling time, comfort (too obsessed over CX, thus very low and rounded downwards).
maxxxxx 7y ago
I think that’s nonsense. Cars have much more power than they used to have. They are also much heavier due to all the luxury equipment they are carrying around. If you want responsive then reduce the weight.
cptskippy 7y ago
> Cars used to be definitely more responsive, and they get more sluggish and more expensive to maintain with every new Euro standard published. A Honda Civic use to have a 1500lb curb weight with a 1.2L engine, now it's over 2700lbs and has a 1.6L.

by pif 7y ago

CydeWeys 7y ago

Public health is more important than cars getting sportier. Particulate emissions are a real health hazard, causing respiratory illnesses for millions of people each year. The negative externalities of air pollution are huge, and it's not an exaggeration to say that air pollution is directly causing the deaths of 6 figures of people every year, who would otherwise not have died. Every single one of us has lungs and breathes the air around us. Stricter emissions controls are better for all of us.

nullc 7y ago
Fun fact: there are non-trivial differences in air quality from place to place-- that's how it's possible to estimate the impact on mortality. If you have any freedom at all in choosing where you live, air quality should be a factor.

neuronic 7y ago

Do I misinterpret you or does it sound a bit as if you value the responsiveness of your car over the emission standard which exists to protect the health of people as well as the environment? Obviously one can discuss the numbers and limits defined in the emission standard and how much sense they make but I would find it odd if someone put car performance over its negative impact on others.

georgerobinson 7y ago
Yes and no. Cars are less responsive than ever as manufacturers insert artificial latency into electric throttle-by-wire to reduce emissions. However, at the same time cars continue to become heavier and heavier with each new model or generation. This in itself is poor for environment because heavier vehicles must burn more fuel to accelerate at the same rate, more fuel to maintain the same speed, use more pad material to brake (and thus release more particulates) while also having increased tire wear. But for some reason the latter issue is ignored while the former is front and center. It doesn't make sense to me
- Sharlin 7y ago
  Unfortunately in the US car size is (still) a status thing and has led to an arms race. Size is an obvious differentiator, acceleration or responsivity much less so. Your gasoline is also way too cheap.
  - georgerobinson 7y ago
    I live in the U.K, I pay $1.75 per litre.
    - Sharlin 7y ago
      Oops, sorry for assuming!
- sacheendra 7y ago
  Safety regulations, stricter emissions regulations, drive by wire tech, crash zones and everything else petrolheads don't like about cars make them better for commuters. Even with all these features, the average increase in weight for cars of the same size has been a paltry 23kg. The weight increase of the "average car" comes from people buying SUVs, which people increasingly are. For a track day car, a cheap modern sports car like a miata, or a 1980s/90s sports car has all the characteristics you want for the price of a modern commuter car. Its just that a commuter cares more about relaxation than road feel. :-)

adrianN 7y ago

If you want a responsive car, get an EV. If you want an even more responsive vehicle, get a bicycle.

georgerobinson 7y ago
I would quite like to own an EV, but are still too expensive for me! I also read that the batteries do not like repeated full-throttle accelerations as it causes excessive heat build-up and accelerated degradation on the cells. To reduce this the car will often enter limp-mode before then, so it might not even be appropriate for sports/track use.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  I'm just curious what the math looks like for you with all monthly total costs accounted for? How much is the monthly loan payment on an EV plus charging costs vs the monthly loan payment on an ICE plus gas costs? How many miles do you drive per month? There are some used EVs that are available pretty affordably, and the monthly savings on gas could be substantial depending on your typical monthly mileage.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- your-nanny 7y ago
  you can buy a 2015 Nissan Leaf for a put $12-$14k on carvana. Surprised me!
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    They're going for $9k in the Southeast US.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  > I would quite like to own an EV, but are still too expensive for me! Without providing a specific use case or criteria then it's impossible to say. > I also read that the batteries do not like repeated full-throttle accelerations as it causes excessive heat build-up and accelerated degradation on the cells That's true and so is the statement "internal combustion engines used in automobiles produce heat during operation that will cause them to fail after a short period of time". But we know that ICEs don't fail because they have cooling systems, so to do EV's batteries and motors. > To reduce this the car will often enter limp-mode before then If someone said "my ICE vehicle won't allow me to red-line it and reduces my max RPMs when it's close to overheating to avoid damaging the engine" would you see that as a bad thing? Would you assume red-lining and engine overheating issues were common when driving an ICE vehicle? If not, then why do you assume such behavior is bad in an EV? While it is true that rapidly discharging batteries produces heat, it is also true that most EVs have thermal management in place and most have active temperature control systems for their battery packs. The Nissan Leaf is one of the few EVs that does not have active temperature control systems, their packs are air cooled. Also note that I said "temperature control" and not cooling, Tesla's and other EVs can actively warm their batteries to increase performance. You should read up on the Tesla Model 3's track mode to get a better understanding of what EVs are capable of: https://www.tesla.com/blog/how-track-mode-works https://www.tesla.com/blog/how-track-mode-works

AmVess 7y ago

Cars are getting more expensive, and people are keeping them longer. The average transaction price in the USA is $36,000. Even a base model economy car with financing is $25k. A nicely configured economy car will be $30k with financing. This is a lot of money for many households, and the sales prove that; fewer cars were sold last year than during the worst part of the last recession. In GM's case, not only are they going though a national downturn in sales, but their management is keen to outsource engineering to far cheaper companies overseas.

dragandj 7y ago
The other side of the coin is that what is considered a “a base economy car” in US would be seen as luxury house on wheels in most of the world. In Europe, most people drive 10-15K eur (including very high taxes and VAT) city cars which can carry 4-5 people quite comfortably at 120km/h. US always seemed to me quite exorbant when it comes to cars....
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  Not even other parts of the world. These US economy cars are very nice in terms of quality and features, so luxury cars are really competing for status now, not experience (except for dealership amenities). Combine that with a large used-car market, and unupgradeable infotainment systems, and it could be a tough sell.
  - Retric 7y ago
    The lines get a little blurry. The cheapest Acura (Honda’s luxury brand) starts at $25,900 which is easy to hit with any options on a Honda. Lexus starts at a more traditional 34k, but again it’s easy to get low 30’s with a few options on a Toyota.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    That is a natural progression. We could make a model T with only safety and emissions changes for pretty, lets say $5000 to give it a number. However if you buy a 7 year old car for $5000 it will have electric start, a heater (not to mention AC), a radio, likely heated seats and other luxury cars. So you are likely to not buy the base model new car. Thus all new cars need to provide luxury items, any luxury that turns out to be popular with customers quickly gets added to the base model (unless it is expensive even at scale)

LoSboccacc 7y ago

it's also that people have less disposable income. around europe at least is uncommon for full size car not to be on some lease as a company car

Aeolun 7y ago

I honestly cannot imagine this perceived slowdown is anywhere but in your mind. Much less that it affects the fun of driving for the great majority of people. Do you have any sources for that?

pif 7y ago
I honestly thinks you never drove a car where the throttle was directly linked to the butterfly valve. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle#Internal_combustion_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle#Internal_combustion_e...): Historically, the throttle pedal or lever acts via a direct mechanical linkage. Technically it means, that the butterfly valve of the throttle is operated by means of an arm piece, loaded by a spring. This arm is usually directly linked to the accelerator cable, and operates in accordance with the driver, who hits it. The further the pedal is pushed, the wider the throttle valve opens. Modern engines of both types (gas and diesel) are commonly drive-by-wire systems where sensors monitor the driver controls and in response a computerized system controls the flow of fuel and air. This means that the operator does not have direct control over the flow of fuel and air; the Engine Control Unit (ECU) can achieve better control in order to reduce emissions, maximize performance and adjust the engine idle to ...
- Aeolun 7y ago
  That’s possible. The first time I drove was some 10 years ago, but in a fairly newish car. I guess it’s only a temporary issue though, as you’d get used to your cars characteristics quite fast.
pif 7y ago
> Much less that it affects the fun of driving for the great majority of people. Commuting never was fun. But, from time to time, when overtaking a long truck on a uphill road, you'd really like your car to work for you (as in "I need power, just for a few seconds, but I need it now!"), and not against you (as in "Please, if it is not too big an hassle for you, would you mind to try and rev the engine up a bit? Take you time, sure, but... that hairpin turn is getting closer and closer!").

smt88 7y ago

I work in the auto industry. Most consumers care more about the dash system (CarPlay, Android Auto, etc.), mileage, and size of the car than the way it drives. That's why Porsche sells SUVs.

pif 7y ago
> Most consumers care more about the dash system (...), mileage, and size of the car than the way it drives They care about things they can choose. They don't care about responsive cars because responsive cars do not exist. Actually, they did exist until a few years ago: they were VW! Why do you think they cheated?
- smt88 7y ago
  > They don't care about responsive cars because responsive cars do not exist. No. If that were true, surveys would show that people are paying a premium for electric cars because of the way they handle. People mostly pay the premium for environmental and financial reasons. I have never seen marketing data suggesting that handling is a make-or-break purchase decision for the majority of consumers.
  - pif 7y ago
    > If that were true, surveys would show that people are paying a premium for electric cars because of the way they handle. Sorry, I don't agree with you. Responsiveness has been taken away from ICE cars, but EV have too many shortcomings w.r.t ICE cars: price, range, refueling time, comfort (too obsessed over CX, thus very low and rounded downwards).

maxxxxx 7y ago

I think that’s nonsense. Cars have much more power than they used to have. They are also much heavier due to all the luxury equipment they are carrying around. If you want responsive then reduce the weight.

cptskippy 7y ago

> Cars used to be definitely more responsive, and they get more sluggish and more expensive to maintain with every new Euro standard published. A Honda Civic use to have a 1500lb curb weight with a 1.2L engine, now it's over 2700lbs and has a 1.6L.