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I’m debating the possibility of moving out of MacOS and just get a Windows 10 Surface device. I don’t mind the Windows UI but feel like WSL may not be adequate

I’m debating the possibility of moving out of MacOS and just get a Windows 10 Surface device. I don’t mind the Windows UI but feel like WSL may not be adequate for me. With this rate of change inside MS OS team, I won’t be surprised when one day, Windows would embrace the Linux kernel and just build the UI on top of it. Look at what the IE team does with Chromium. Somehow, I think MS needs to cannibalize its own business (OS or browser) to set itself for a comeback in the near future.

microwavecamera 7y ago
This. I was thinking the same thing. I would not be shocked if MS switched Windows to a Linux kernel. It would save them billions in R&D and support.
- qqn 7y ago
  Embrace, extend... exist?
- thunderbong 7y ago
  You're kidding, right? Do you have any idea of the Windows userbase?
  - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
    Exactly. Windows 10 is a much better operating system than Linux for a broad range of applications, and the desktop. I develop on Windows 10, and am quite happy using a VM (not WSL) for my Centos development.
    - microwavecamera 7y ago
      Are you talking about desktop applications? Windows 10 like every version of Windows going back to NT is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer and separates userland from the kernel while providing a platform agnostic API. There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Why spend billions on R&D for something you can get for free? Case in point, MacOS/OSX. Apple figured that out a long time ago and it obviously worked for them.
      - chx 7y ago
        > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't There is, for laptop/desktop: almost all of those run a Windows kernel thus most money for laptop/desktop device driver support is going towards supporting the Windows kernel. Technically... it's a difficult discussion but it's irrelevant. Noone is running a bare kernel.
        MagicPropmaker 7y ago
        The Linux Kernel is a 60s era monolithic architecture. Windows 10 is a modern microkernel. So, of course, the Linux "kernel" has more stuff in it. But that means that every driver and feature has to be carefully compiled in. It's no wonder there are far more audio, video, and specialized drivers on Windows 10.
        chx 7y ago
        Windows 10 is a hybrid kernel. https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 Microsoft itself called the NT 3.1 kernel a "macrokernel". https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820(v=technet.10) https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820... If you look at the Other Wiki, you will find even Mac OS is not a microkernel. http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel > XNU is not a MicroKernel, it is a kernel obtained by merging the Mach MicroKernel with parts of the BSD kernel and parts specific to Darwin, all running in kernel space. OKL4 is the most widely deployed pure microkernel in Qualcomm phone modems and Apple's Secure Enclave coprocessor. It is possible OKL4 is the most widespread OS, in fact.
      - zvrba 7y ago
        > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Oh there is. Like pervasive ACLs on all kernel objects, e.g., processes. User-ids (SIDs) based on a distributed authority model rather than a simple int. Then there's asynchronous IO that's still not usable in Linux. Etc, etc...
  - microwavecamera 7y ago
    What? Why would that be a factor? It's a kernel. Why would it make a difference if the Windows desktop ran on a different kernel? MS has rolled out several different kernels over the history of Windows, why would it be any different? Just like OP mentioned look at MS switching Edge to the Chromium backend. To the user there's isn't a real difference. It's still Edge.
    - nitemice 7y ago
      Except most of the unique features of Edge are gone. Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice a difference in Edge when the Chromium version rolls out. Plus, word on the street is Microsoft's motivation to move to Chromium was totally different to that: it was a performance decision. Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS.
      - microwavecamera 7y ago
        >Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice >Plus, word on the street is Come on, don't just start spewing a bunch of weasel words. It's fine if you disagree me and I won't downvote you if you do (I never downvote people for that reason) but at least put some effort into it. > Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS. Well why wouldn't they just build out the Edge backend to be compatible with node.js to natively support the Electron API? Because it a waste of time and R&D money when Chromium does all that already and more with minimal cost. Why reinvent the wheel when you can get a run-flat radial tire for free?
    - naikrovek 7y ago
      Microsoft sell Windows partly on the promise of backwards compatibility. A Linux kernel would destroy any real backwards compatibility possibilities, with prejudice. There are 1,000 privately developed and privately run Windows apps for every publicly available application, and those private applications are the backbone of businesses around the world. A Linux kernel would render a VERY large portion of those inoperable, even with WINE. A Windows with a Linux kernel will never replace traditional Windows. Some Microsoft OS may live alongside traditional Windows, at some point however, and it is unlikely to be Linux at all. There are lots of kernel architectures out there besides the ones that Linux and Windows use.
axaxs 7y ago
I just can't find this happening. Windows primary selling point to the masses is application support. Whether it's games, office software, meidcal software, etc, many people use Windows for this reason. If Windows became just a UI, it would have to compete with Ubuntu/Fedora/etc, which are usable and more importantly to consumers, free.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  What if they also forked Wine and replaced its COM server and libraries with their own from Windows? Whatever approach they choose, I'm confident they have the ability to ship a Linux distro that runs Windows apps well. It would certainly be a lot easier than going the other direction (Linux compatibility in Windows).
- SiVal 7y ago
  Microsoft made the switch from DOS-based with Windows as a layer to full Windows-based ("NT") operating systems by having both for several years. They could probably offer a Linux kernel with whatever Windows OS services mattered most for the future in parallel with regular Windows for a decade or so. Doing so might give them a more attractive offering for the future while retaining most of the Windows legacy business. It would also let them leave lots of legacy problems behind, and pick up a lot of the "real desktop computer for real work" business that Apple is pushing away in its own gradual transition to the "controlled purchasing portal" OS they love.
viraptor 7y ago
If you want to move out of osx, but wsl is not good enough, then... why not just Linux?
- fcbrooklyn 7y ago
  can't speak for the OP, but there are several apps I wanted to run that would have been cumbersome with that approach (although I looked at it). Main apps in question were Excel, and Ableton Live.
  - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
    I run Windows for Office, CAD software etc. and then have Virtualbox with Linux that I run fullscreen for coding work. Works nicely, haven't noticed any major performance hit.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Also you can go the other way. I've been running on Linux with a seemless VirtualBox window for Outlook.
      - Sangeppato 7y ago
        CAD software is just a bit more demanding that Outlook..
        viraptor 7y ago
        I meant in general, not specifically for CAD. But even then... You can do gfx card passthrough to the VM these days if standard 3d acceleration is not enough. CADs should work just fine.
        jki275 7y ago
        gfx passthrough is always a crapshoot. It normally doesn't work, and even if it does it simply adds a lot of complexity to something that doesn't need it.
fcbrooklyn 7y ago
I did exactly this last summer, and have been quite happy with the decision. (context: my dev work is all about elixir/erlang, some python, and some haskell). So far I've had very little trouble with WSL, but its performance is certainly worse than running on windows directly, or on macOs, but for dev purposes it's adequate, and it sounds like that part is about to be solved for me anyway. My thinking is mainly that while windows is still a little behind MacOS for some things, it's headed in the right direction, and MacOS is heading the other way. The hardware is superior in almost every way to what I was looking at in a MBP (my windows machine is a SB2), only complaints are about the location of the headphone jack, and the fact that the rubber "feet" on the bottom of the laptop have come unglued, which does kinda suck.
robertAngst 7y ago
Get a gaming laptop, ~1000 USD. Mine has handled every programming, design, and editing I've ever needed. Btw, I just Virtual Machine or SSH my linux boxes.
jki275 7y ago
Why in the world would they do something as absurd as throwing over their kernel for a Linux kernel? A BSD or Mach kernel, perhaps -- that's been done successfully already on the desktop. Linux? No chance.
screye 7y ago
All I want is a surface laptop with a thunderbolt port, that's it. It is very likely that the Surface Laptop 3 will be the best Windows thin-&-light laptop of 2019. Dell, Razer and Lenovo's laptops have stagnated over the last few years. Huawei + Microsoft seem to be the ones with the freshest new offerings, but I am not buying a Huawei product. So, I am hoping Microsoft delivers.
git-pull 7y ago
MacOS X -> Windows 10 convert here. Also Linux user for 15+ years. My experiences: Windows 10 support for things is fantastic. It's faster than Mac OS X and Linux for me. It multitasks better. The HDPI support is very mature compared to Windows 7/8. Multi-monitors just work. I love snapping windows (via corners and hot keys). Also Windows Key + Shift + S to click+drag screenshots to clipboard. Everything just works. Or the driver is a Google away. Wireless printers and scanners. Bluetooth headphones. Apps like slack, trello, spotify. While I haven't used the Surface, I was considering one for development, but the repairability on the Surface Book 2 (if that's what you mean) is worse than the Macbook Pro: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Book+2+Teardown/100364 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Book+2+Tea... On the other hand, Windows 10 "just works" on a lot of hardware. I recommend Lenovo X and T series. Dell XPS series are getting good reviews. WSL: I'm running webpack via npm, postgres, django and flask. I keep the project files in the windows layer and symlink it into WSL. I turn off Defender because it's the only way to work. WSL is far too slow for me to use Defender on. Despite that, I turn a lot of call home stuff off. There's tons of telemetry stuff that adds no value. I tried W10Privacy and OOSU10 for it. I wish Microsoft would just add a button to turn all the cloud cruft/call home stuff off. There is a nasty issue where running rm -rf node_modules that can cause the system to freeze. So go into explorer to remove that with shift+delete. Sometimes I still have to restart. Microsoft has won a lot of confidence from me with Windows 10, VSCode, and WSL.
fetbaffe 7y ago
Why use an inferior kernel like Linux when Microsoft already has an superior kernel like NT?

microwavecamera 7y ago

This. I was thinking the same thing. I would not be shocked if MS switched Windows to a Linux kernel. It would save them billions in R&D and support.

qqn 7y ago
Embrace, extend... exist?
thunderbong 7y ago
You're kidding, right? Do you have any idea of the Windows userbase?
- MagicPropmaker 7y ago
  Exactly. Windows 10 is a much better operating system than Linux for a broad range of applications, and the desktop. I develop on Windows 10, and am quite happy using a VM (not WSL) for my Centos development.
  - microwavecamera 7y ago
    Are you talking about desktop applications? Windows 10 like every version of Windows going back to NT is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer and separates userland from the kernel while providing a platform agnostic API. There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Why spend billions on R&D for something you can get for free? Case in point, MacOS/OSX. Apple figured that out a long time ago and it obviously worked for them.
    - chx 7y ago
      > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't There is, for laptop/desktop: almost all of those run a Windows kernel thus most money for laptop/desktop device driver support is going towards supporting the Windows kernel. Technically... it's a difficult discussion but it's irrelevant. Noone is running a bare kernel.
      - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
        The Linux Kernel is a 60s era monolithic architecture. Windows 10 is a modern microkernel. So, of course, the Linux "kernel" has more stuff in it. But that means that every driver and feature has to be carefully compiled in. It's no wonder there are far more audio, video, and specialized drivers on Windows 10.
        chx 7y ago
        Windows 10 is a hybrid kernel. https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 Microsoft itself called the NT 3.1 kernel a "macrokernel". https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820(v=technet.10) https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820... If you look at the Other Wiki, you will find even Mac OS is not a microkernel. http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel > XNU is not a MicroKernel, it is a kernel obtained by merging the Mach MicroKernel with parts of the BSD kernel and parts specific to Darwin, all running in kernel space. OKL4 is the most widely deployed pure microkernel in Qualcomm phone modems and Apple's Secure Enclave coprocessor. It is possible OKL4 is the most widespread OS, in fact.
    - zvrba 7y ago
      > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Oh there is. Like pervasive ACLs on all kernel objects, e.g., processes. User-ids (SIDs) based on a distributed authority model rather than a simple int. Then there's asynchronous IO that's still not usable in Linux. Etc, etc...
- microwavecamera 7y ago
  What? Why would that be a factor? It's a kernel. Why would it make a difference if the Windows desktop ran on a different kernel? MS has rolled out several different kernels over the history of Windows, why would it be any different? Just like OP mentioned look at MS switching Edge to the Chromium backend. To the user there's isn't a real difference. It's still Edge.
  - nitemice 7y ago
    Except most of the unique features of Edge are gone. Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice a difference in Edge when the Chromium version rolls out. Plus, word on the street is Microsoft's motivation to move to Chromium was totally different to that: it was a performance decision. Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS.
    - microwavecamera 7y ago
      >Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice >Plus, word on the street is Come on, don't just start spewing a bunch of weasel words. It's fine if you disagree me and I won't downvote you if you do (I never downvote people for that reason) but at least put some effort into it. > Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS. Well why wouldn't they just build out the Edge backend to be compatible with node.js to natively support the Electron API? Because it a waste of time and R&D money when Chromium does all that already and more with minimal cost. Why reinvent the wheel when you can get a run-flat radial tire for free?
  - naikrovek 7y ago
    Microsoft sell Windows partly on the promise of backwards compatibility. A Linux kernel would destroy any real backwards compatibility possibilities, with prejudice. There are 1,000 privately developed and privately run Windows apps for every publicly available application, and those private applications are the backbone of businesses around the world. A Linux kernel would render a VERY large portion of those inoperable, even with WINE. A Windows with a Linux kernel will never replace traditional Windows. Some Microsoft OS may live alongside traditional Windows, at some point however, and it is unlikely to be Linux at all. There are lots of kernel architectures out there besides the ones that Linux and Windows use.

axaxs 7y ago

I just can't find this happening. Windows primary selling point to the masses is application support. Whether it's games, office software, meidcal software, etc, many people use Windows for this reason. If Windows became just a UI, it would have to compete with Ubuntu/Fedora/etc, which are usable and more importantly to consumers, free.

TimTheTinker 7y ago
What if they also forked Wine and replaced its COM server and libraries with their own from Windows? Whatever approach they choose, I'm confident they have the ability to ship a Linux distro that runs Windows apps well. It would certainly be a lot easier than going the other direction (Linux compatibility in Windows).
SiVal 7y ago
Microsoft made the switch from DOS-based with Windows as a layer to full Windows-based ("NT") operating systems by having both for several years. They could probably offer a Linux kernel with whatever Windows OS services mattered most for the future in parallel with regular Windows for a decade or so. Doing so might give them a more attractive offering for the future while retaining most of the Windows legacy business. It would also let them leave lots of legacy problems behind, and pick up a lot of the "real desktop computer for real work" business that Apple is pushing away in its own gradual transition to the "controlled purchasing portal" OS they love.

viraptor 7y ago

If you want to move out of osx, but wsl is not good enough, then... why not just Linux?

fcbrooklyn 7y ago
can't speak for the OP, but there are several apps I wanted to run that would have been cumbersome with that approach (although I looked at it). Main apps in question were Excel, and Ableton Live.
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  I run Windows for Office, CAD software etc. and then have Virtualbox with Linux that I run fullscreen for coding work. Works nicely, haven't noticed any major performance hit.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Also you can go the other way. I've been running on Linux with a seemless VirtualBox window for Outlook.
    - Sangeppato 7y ago
      CAD software is just a bit more demanding that Outlook..
      - viraptor 7y ago
        I meant in general, not specifically for CAD. But even then... You can do gfx card passthrough to the VM these days if standard 3d acceleration is not enough. CADs should work just fine.
        jki275 7y ago
        gfx passthrough is always a crapshoot. It normally doesn't work, and even if it does it simply adds a lot of complexity to something that doesn't need it.

fcbrooklyn 7y ago

I did exactly this last summer, and have been quite happy with the decision. (context: my dev work is all about elixir/erlang, some python, and some haskell). So far I've had very little trouble with WSL, but its performance is certainly worse than running on windows directly, or on macOs, but for dev purposes it's adequate, and it sounds like that part is about to be solved for me anyway. My thinking is mainly that while windows is still a little behind MacOS for some things, it's headed in the right direction, and MacOS is heading the other way. The hardware is superior in almost every way to what I was looking at in a MBP (my windows machine is a SB2), only complaints are about the location of the headphone jack, and the fact that the rubber "feet" on the bottom of the laptop have come unglued, which does kinda suck.

robertAngst 7y ago

Get a gaming laptop, ~1000 USD. Mine has handled every programming, design, and editing I've ever needed. Btw, I just Virtual Machine or SSH my linux boxes.

jki275 7y ago

Why in the world would they do something as absurd as throwing over their kernel for a Linux kernel? A BSD or Mach kernel, perhaps -- that's been done successfully already on the desktop. Linux? No chance.

screye 7y ago

All I want is a surface laptop with a thunderbolt port, that's it. It is very likely that the Surface Laptop 3 will be the best Windows thin-&-light laptop of 2019. Dell, Razer and Lenovo's laptops have stagnated over the last few years. Huawei + Microsoft seem to be the ones with the freshest new offerings, but I am not buying a Huawei product. So, I am hoping Microsoft delivers.

git-pull 7y ago

MacOS X -> Windows 10 convert here. Also Linux user for 15+ years. My experiences: Windows 10 support for things is fantastic. It's faster than Mac OS X and Linux for me. It multitasks better. The HDPI support is very mature compared to Windows 7/8. Multi-monitors just work. I love snapping windows (via corners and hot keys). Also Windows Key + Shift + S to click+drag screenshots to clipboard. Everything just works. Or the driver is a Google away. Wireless printers and scanners. Bluetooth headphones. Apps like slack, trello, spotify. While I haven't used the Surface, I was considering one for development, but the repairability on the Surface Book 2 (if that's what you mean) is worse than the Macbook Pro: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Book+2+Teardown/100364 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Book+2+Tea... On the other hand, Windows 10 "just works" on a lot of hardware. I recommend Lenovo X and T series. Dell XPS series are getting good reviews. WSL: I'm running webpack via npm, postgres, django and flask. I keep the project files in the windows layer and symlink it into WSL. I turn off Defender because it's the only way to work. WSL is far too slow for me to use Defender on. Despite that, I turn a lot of call home stuff off. There's tons of telemetry stuff that adds no value. I tried W10Privacy and OOSU10 for it. I wish Microsoft would just add a button to turn all the cloud cruft/call home stuff off. There is a nasty issue where running rm -rf node_modules that can cause the system to freeze. So go into explorer to remove that with shift+delete. Sometimes I still have to restart. Microsoft has won a lot of confidence from me with Windows 10, VSCode, and WSL.

fetbaffe 7y ago

Why use an inferior kernel like Linux when Microsoft already has an superior kernel like NT?