4 ms·

The flow-on damage of billing errors like this can be immense. Ive seen it first hand, and the people working for these companies generally have no idea how muc

The flow-on damage of billing errors like this can be immense. Ive seen it first hand, and the people working for these companies generally have no idea how much an overdraft fee can ruin someone’s life in the short/medium term. If the refund isn’t fast enough it also leads to missed rent and bills, all of which have fees for being late, plus possible debt collector issues as most utility companies will send a single missed bill directly to collections these days. Not to mention inability to buy food, gas/transport to work, etc.

Johnny555 7y ago
if the cost of your cell phone means you can't buy food, the you've bought more phone than you can afford. If covering the unexpected full-value cost of your phone is more painful than transferring money from your savings account, then you should have bought a cheaper phone.
- King-Aaron 7y ago
  This is a naive comment, there are complexities in many peoples lives where even someone on a reasonable income may be caught short when 500-1000 dollars is deducted from them without warning.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    No doubt -- $1000 is a lot of money to many people. Those are the people that shouldn't have purchased a $1000 phone. A $150 Moto G6 may not be as fast as a flagship phone, and may not have a great screen or camera, but if paying to price of the phone upfront means the difference between putting food on the table or not, buy the cheap phone and build up your emergency fund. What happens if their unaffordable phone is lost or stolen?
    - imtringued 7y ago
      I don't get this. $1000 is not a lot of money if you spread it over 2 years or even 5 years. I still use a 5 year old flagship. In other words it can be the sensible choice if you're willing to plan ahead, compared to just buying the cheapest stuff you can find and then throw it away after it breaks due to the lower quality. My micro USB port is wearing out and it is difficult to charge the phone. I will most likely have to get a new one in 2019. Features like wireless charging or waterproofing that would extend the life of my phone are mostly only available to flagships. On top of these benefits you also simply get a better phone. So now suddenly a company screws over people and it affects poor people disproportionately. Of course it's the fault of those poor people because they failed to plan their finances correctly and shouldn't have bought an expensive phone. Except they can afford the advertised plan and perhaps they even have chosen a phone according to the points I mentioned above because it will save them money in the long run. So why are we blaming the customers and defending the company's disgusting behavior? Do you really think it should be normal that companies are screwing you and it should be the responsibility of the customer to defend himself against what basically amounts to fraud?
    - King-Aaron 7y ago
      What's naive is thinking that a person who gets seriously inconvenienced by a thousand dollars disappearing is immediately the same as someone who struggles to put food on the table - I feel there is a disconnect in your view of the kinds of middle income earners who we're describing here. I think the legs on your horse may also be too high. If someone has a mortgage, kids, other large outgoings etc, they are sill easily able to afford a flagship device. However a sudden hit to the monthly budget that's an order of magnitude larger than normal will ruffle most (i.e. easily over 50%) of borrowers.
      - Johnny555 7y ago
        It wasn't my suggestion that this would make people unable to buy food, I was replying to this comment: Not to mention inability to buy food, gas/transport to work, etc. If a $1000 phone is an order of magnitude over your monthly budget, then your monthly budget is only $100. ...still easily able to afford a flagship device. If they can't pay upfront, it doesn't sound like they can easily afford the device. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but my automatic overdraft protection on my checking is over 2x my entire monthly budget. it's not free to use but it would keep me from bouncing checks until I can transfer money from my emergency fund. If I had an unexpected $1000 charge it would come out of that overdraft protection.
    - marak830 7y ago
      And maybe those same people worked hard to be able to afford said phone on a payment plan. But the issue here is said payment plan didn't work as advertised
    - x0x0 7y ago
      Have you ever bought a car, even a reasonably priced one that you could well afford? What would have happened to your finances if, eg, you signed a 3 year car note for $800/mo and yet the entire $25k was removed from your accounts all at once?
- jstarfish 7y ago
  Having the note called without warning was not part of the service agreement, financial circumstances of the customer be damned. Google fucked a lot of people by error. Its not the victims' burden to prove they didnt deserve it.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Oh I don't disagree, Google screwed up big-time, but people need to use some fiscal restraint before they blame Google for getting evicted or not being able to pay for food.
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      "Overcharging" is a lovely euphemism for something that is tantamount to theft. You agree to give me $10/month, and trust me with access to your wallet to remove that $10. I take out $1000 and walk off leaving you an IOU that you will get back once I can be bothered to get my thumb out and pay you. The only thing you did wrong in this instance was trust someone with access to your money. Unless you never make a card payment, you're always having to make that allowance of trust. It's not okay on an individual level, and it's even less okay coming from a billion dollar corporation. Mistakes happen, but unless there's a penalty to those committing the mistake, there's no incentive to not make more of the same mistakes in future.
- marak830 7y ago
  Wow. Just in case you haven't realised from the other responses, your rather entitled. Not everyone is in a position to deal with large unexpected bills. Maybe you should learn to have a little empathy.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Entitled? I wanted a Pixel 3 but couldn't justify spending $900 on a cell phone so got a Nokia 7.1 for about half the price.
    - marak830 7y ago
      And forbid you purchase that on some sort of payment plan so you can get it. . . And then have them charge full value all of a sudden
- sk0g 7y ago
  > "if the cost of your home means you can't buy food, the you've bought more home than you can afford. > If covering the unexpected full-value cost of your home is more painful than transferring money from your savings account, then you should have bought a cheaper home" I too can be out of touch with reality, see?
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't scold others on HN. It makes for worse conversation. Actually, "please don't scold" could be a new guideline for https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Johnny555 7y ago

if the cost of your cell phone means you can't buy food, the you've bought more phone than you can afford. If covering the unexpected full-value cost of your phone is more painful than transferring money from your savings account, then you should have bought a cheaper phone.

King-Aaron 7y ago
This is a naive comment, there are complexities in many peoples lives where even someone on a reasonable income may be caught short when 500-1000 dollars is deducted from them without warning.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  No doubt -- $1000 is a lot of money to many people. Those are the people that shouldn't have purchased a $1000 phone. A $150 Moto G6 may not be as fast as a flagship phone, and may not have a great screen or camera, but if paying to price of the phone upfront means the difference between putting food on the table or not, buy the cheap phone and build up your emergency fund. What happens if their unaffordable phone is lost or stolen?
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I don't get this. $1000 is not a lot of money if you spread it over 2 years or even 5 years. I still use a 5 year old flagship. In other words it can be the sensible choice if you're willing to plan ahead, compared to just buying the cheapest stuff you can find and then throw it away after it breaks due to the lower quality. My micro USB port is wearing out and it is difficult to charge the phone. I will most likely have to get a new one in 2019. Features like wireless charging or waterproofing that would extend the life of my phone are mostly only available to flagships. On top of these benefits you also simply get a better phone. So now suddenly a company screws over people and it affects poor people disproportionately. Of course it's the fault of those poor people because they failed to plan their finances correctly and shouldn't have bought an expensive phone. Except they can afford the advertised plan and perhaps they even have chosen a phone according to the points I mentioned above because it will save them money in the long run. So why are we blaming the customers and defending the company's disgusting behavior? Do you really think it should be normal that companies are screwing you and it should be the responsibility of the customer to defend himself against what basically amounts to fraud?
  - King-Aaron 7y ago
    What's naive is thinking that a person who gets seriously inconvenienced by a thousand dollars disappearing is immediately the same as someone who struggles to put food on the table - I feel there is a disconnect in your view of the kinds of middle income earners who we're describing here. I think the legs on your horse may also be too high. If someone has a mortgage, kids, other large outgoings etc, they are sill easily able to afford a flagship device. However a sudden hit to the monthly budget that's an order of magnitude larger than normal will ruffle most (i.e. easily over 50%) of borrowers.
    - Johnny555 7y ago
      It wasn't my suggestion that this would make people unable to buy food, I was replying to this comment: Not to mention inability to buy food, gas/transport to work, etc. If a $1000 phone is an order of magnitude over your monthly budget, then your monthly budget is only $100. ...still easily able to afford a flagship device. If they can't pay upfront, it doesn't sound like they can easily afford the device. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but my automatic overdraft protection on my checking is over 2x my entire monthly budget. it's not free to use but it would keep me from bouncing checks until I can transfer money from my emergency fund. If I had an unexpected $1000 charge it would come out of that overdraft protection.
  - marak830 7y ago
    And maybe those same people worked hard to be able to afford said phone on a payment plan. But the issue here is said payment plan didn't work as advertised
  - x0x0 7y ago
    Have you ever bought a car, even a reasonably priced one that you could well afford? What would have happened to your finances if, eg, you signed a 3 year car note for $800/mo and yet the entire $25k was removed from your accounts all at once?
jstarfish 7y ago
Having the note called without warning was not part of the service agreement, financial circumstances of the customer be damned. Google fucked a lot of people by error. Its not the victims' burden to prove they didnt deserve it.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Oh I don't disagree, Google screwed up big-time, but people need to use some fiscal restraint before they blame Google for getting evicted or not being able to pay for food.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    "Overcharging" is a lovely euphemism for something that is tantamount to theft. You agree to give me $10/month, and trust me with access to your wallet to remove that $10. I take out $1000 and walk off leaving you an IOU that you will get back once I can be bothered to get my thumb out and pay you. The only thing you did wrong in this instance was trust someone with access to your money. Unless you never make a card payment, you're always having to make that allowance of trust. It's not okay on an individual level, and it's even less okay coming from a billion dollar corporation. Mistakes happen, but unless there's a penalty to those committing the mistake, there's no incentive to not make more of the same mistakes in future.
marak830 7y ago
Wow. Just in case you haven't realised from the other responses, your rather entitled. Not everyone is in a position to deal with large unexpected bills. Maybe you should learn to have a little empathy.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Entitled? I wanted a Pixel 3 but couldn't justify spending $900 on a cell phone so got a Nokia 7.1 for about half the price.
  - marak830 7y ago
    And forbid you purchase that on some sort of payment plan so you can get it. . . And then have them charge full value all of a sudden
sk0g 7y ago
> "if the cost of your home means you can't buy food, the you've bought more home than you can afford. > If covering the unexpected full-value cost of your home is more painful than transferring money from your savings account, then you should have bought a cheaper home" I too can be out of touch with reality, see?
dang 7y ago
Please don't scold others on HN. It makes for worse conversation. Actually, "please don't scold" could be a new guideline for https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.