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speaking from experience as an engine mechanic for a small chain of shops in the midwest, ive done "Tesla authorized" suspension work before and its a hassle to

speaking from experience as an engine mechanic for a small chain of shops in the midwest, ive done "Tesla authorized" suspension work before and its a hassle to say the least. Normal cars and hybrids are mostly an in-and-out kind of thing where the billable hours are fixed/known and you get a real choice in parts. Bilstein vs generic shocks or holly cams for example. With tesla, everything has to come from California. Control arms for example, which i could probably find one that will fit any Tesla, must be shipped from a warehouse certified. This took 5 weeks to deliver and the customer was furious that we would not keep the car in our garage for that long. Luckily they were close to the shop, so we waived a second tow charge and after a seriously long wait for parts, got the vehicle back on the road again. Tesla sometimes makes you do weird things like ship the old arms/linkage/etc.. back to them. Other times you might need to take pictures expressly for them, or call them after work is completed. Its a serious PITA for a car that could easily just get TRG or Moog aftermarket arms in about 3 days, but if you do, youll lose your "tesla certified" status in a heartbeat.

420codebro 8y ago
Wow - That sounds like a massive logistical efficiency failure. I could even see people tolerating higher prices (as it is a Tesla, etc) - but that long of a delay is insane. I wonder how many Tesla owners regret their purchase after experiencing a crazy-ass long delay like that. To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. However I am also a realist - they have a lot of PR issues that would sink them if they were for example Ford/Chevy/BMW/Mercedes/Audi/etc.
- dangrossman 8y ago
  > To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. Isn't it strange how often similar posturing appears in comments about Tesla. There aren't any secret SV police that are going to break down your door and take away your "we're saving the world" card if you say something "realist" about Tesla without a disclaimer.
  - fisherjeff 8y ago
    Well I think that’s probably because there are a lot of very vocal people who seem to think that negative feedback must mean you’re a short seller and take that as permission to engage non-constructively. Disclaimer: I also want Tesla to succeed
    - gumby 8y ago
      Interesting, as it feels to me like people take anything positive about that company as gospel. Disclaimer: I don't give a fig either way whether the company succeeds or fails though I have a very hard time understanding how they can ever maintain their mkt cap.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        I’m for almost any company succeeding that doesn’t cause a lot of negative externalities and whose business model is you give them money and they give you stuff where in exchange for me getting a produce of value, they can be a profitable on going concern.
      - PButtNutter 8y ago
        The media in general hypes up Tesla way more than any other automaker. Like every Tesla crash makes headlines. Name any other automaker that faces the same scrutiny.
        wpietri 8y ago
        The media is the one who hypes up Tesla? Musk has pursued an strategy that's built around very aggressive PR. This gives him lower marketing cost and lower cost of capital, so it's a reasonable approach. But he has to take the bad with the good. That includes critical articles as well as the many fawning ones.
        fucking_tragedy 8y ago
        > Name any other automaker that faces the same scrutiny. Name any other automaker that makes claims like these about their automatic cruise control: "the person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself."[1] [1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/05/23/490104.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/05/23/49...
- burger_moon 8y ago
  From reading articles on here for years about Teslas, it seems one of the major selling points is that you are expected to not have you car in a shop getting maintenance unlike ICE vehicles. I think most people forget about all the other stuff in that conversation then never considered what it takes to actually get a Tesla serviced because you'd expect it to be like every other car getting repaired.
  - ajross 8y ago
    That's mixing three issues though. The fact that Teslas have stuff that can break (obviously true), that they're having supply chain problems with parts that cause long delays (seems true given the linked article), says absolutely nothing about the frequency of Tesla failures. By all accounts they seem to be quite reliable, as you would obviously expect given the lack of the whole fuel/combustion/exhaust and cooling subsystems.
    - dangrossman 8y ago
      > By all accounts they seem to be quite reliable Consumer Reports ranks Tesla #27 out of 29 manufacturers on reliability, and removed its recommendations for their cars. Several other surveys have similarly put Tesla's reliability dead last or nearly there.
      - alain94040 8y ago
        Part of that ranking is due to the baked-in assumptions: for instance you don't lose points for needing an oil change every year. That's just "normal". The fact that a Tesla doesn't need an oil change, somehow, doesn't give it more points with reliability, but if you think from first principles, it should.
        base698 8y ago
        It does need a $400 annual service though, which you can pay for up front.
- PorterDuff 8y ago
  "To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. However I am also a realist " That's my take. Good for them for taking such a huge chance and seeing an opportunity to take a chance on technology that is just now becoming practical. But...I can't see any reason why Toyota won't squash them like a bug in the low and medium end car biz once EV technology becomes a bit better and their adoption is more mainstream. It's a heckuva business to try to make a profit in in any case.
  - bobsil1 8y ago
    I drive a Toyota Mirai, brother has a Model 3. Mirai is like a plasticky HP laptop vs. the Tesla's MacBook, not to mention the stillborn hydrogen network or the ML-centric team of Tesla autopilot.
    - bobsil1 8y ago
      I love this. We’re on “Hacker” News, and people are in denial that cars are going software-first :D
      - bobsil1 8y ago
        Hackers Snooze
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    Batteries, mostly. Tesla's battery technology is light years ahead of where anyone else is and their charging network is already better than anyone else out there, including the private companies using standards, and they've just recently made them even better and faster through a software update. If anyone catches up to them, I'll be very, very surprised.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      Didn't Tesla open source all it's patents?[1] I am, really, only a casual observer, so can someone tell me if this means anyone can use their battery tech, and whatever else is important? 1. https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-y...
houqp 8y ago
While this seems very painful for the shop and causing long wait for consumers, it seems like Tesla is being pretty serious about quality control?
- userbinator 8y ago
  Ironically, it wouldn't surprise me if the aftermarket parts may actually be better --- those companies built their reputation over many years, after all.
  - thereisnospork 8y ago
    Aftermarket quality is hit and miss though. In three categories there is usually: A. Chinesium crap that is worse than OEM B. Fair OEM replacement (often same toll manufacturer as OEM) C. Improved quality and/or design to OEM, often to overcome a design oversight (see: Porsche IMS bearings, premium suspension dampers) A healthy aftermarket will have all three available, however it is easy for uninformed (and informed) drivers to wind up with A. Understandable why Tesla would want to avoid that even if theirs isn't a perfect solution.
    - threeseed 8y ago
      Except now you have people waiting over a year for a repair. Seems like their perfect solution is less than perfect.
    - BoorishBears 8y ago
      No shop respectable enough to be Tesla certified is going to try and put “chinesium crap” in your car anyways. The good thing about those cheap parts is they don’t try to pretend to be good parts, they’re “You get what you pay for” exemplified. So if a Tesla certified shop can fix a Tesla with a reputable aftermarket part (which they do for non-Teslas already) why not allow it?
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I can't fathom why your comment was downvoted. If the vehicle is within warranty Telsa should provide replacement parts anywhere in the US the next day. If the vehicle is outside of the warranty period the customer should be able to use any replacement part that meets or exceeds specifications. There nothing controversial about this. Edit to add: To be clear, I want Tesla to fail because I think Elon Musk is a massive jerk.
rconti 8y ago
How much of this is because Tesla is new and the aftermarket support isn't there yet? I also see you mention "Tesla certified", but there are plenty of non-certified shops people take their Tesla/Non-Tesla cars to all the time.
- threeseed 8y ago
  a) Tesla isn't new. b) Plenty of new cars come onto the market and I've never heard of any, ever needing to wait a year for parts. c) If you take it to a non-certified shop it ceases to be Tesla Certified which would mean a big hit to resale value.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    Re: b) - exotic cars have this problem a lot, a brand new model of a Lamborghini or a Ferrari usually has zero availablity of parts for 6-12 months after deliveries start, if you get into an accident right at the beginning you might seriously wait a year for a replacement part, in certain states such car would just be lemoned even though the damage might be relatively simple to repair, all because you can't get the parts. On my own AMG I've had to wait 3 months for an engine part specifically because it's sent directly from Affalterbach and they don't exactly keep lots of spares around. Not as bad as a year but I can totally see it happening if your car is not super common.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      This is one among many reasons that almost nobody buys a Lamborghini or Ferrari (and among the people who do, for almost none of them is it their daily driver).
      - idlewords 8y ago
        It's not their daily driver because they're waiting for parts!
      - bigDICK 8y ago
        Why would the truly rich care if one of their toys is damaged? Certainly they have many supercars in their stable. Side note: Wasn't John Carmack using Ferrari's as a daily driver when he wasn't modifying them and when the dealership would sell them to him?
jacques_chester 8y ago
I wanted to defend Tesla by pointing out that spinning up a maintenance network will have substantial lag, since it's a second-order operation. But I read this and I wonder if they're really thinking it through, or doing any modeling of their business. From your description they seem to be doing everything they can do to gum up their own works.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  > spinning up a maintenance network will have substantial lag I don't see why that should be the case, given it's 2019. Tesla could, if it's a warranty repair, just authorise the OEM to send the spare part directly to the customers mechanic. If it's out of warranty, authorise the mechanic to establish a relationship with the OEM. Telsa could see have a view in the which spares when in to which car via communications with the OEM.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    The logistics of parts is one thing. Training and certifying mechanics to install them is a separate thing, since you must also prepare sufficient trainers and certifiers. This not an instantaneous process. There are two stocks with dependent flow rates. Incumbents don't feel this as acutely because they have dealer networks on top of many independent mechanics.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      As far as I’m aware qualified automotive mechanics don’t need training for brew vehicles, but they do need workshop manuals and telephone support. I wouldn’t surprised if new manuals have video links? I can’t see there being anything fundamentally different about Tesla repairs. Many mechanical workshops also employ or engage automotive electricians, so the cross-skill collaboration for the electronics side of the Tesla already exists in the industry. Also, mechanics have been servicing the Prius for years, so they’re not totally unfamiliar with electric vehicles. I don’t know how the dealer networks help? By all accounts here in Australia the dealers employ none to very few of the good mechanics, rather they’ve all left for higher pay / better conditions elsewhere. Maybe I’m wrong about my pondering above, but my larger point of getting parts swiftly to the repairer certainly couldn’t make things worse.
jerrysievert 8y ago
> Tesla sometimes makes you do weird things like ship the old arms/linkage/etc.. back to them. Other times you might need to take pictures expressly for them, or call them after work is completed. to be fair, mazda had the same requirements when my dealership was making engine repairs on my mx5 ... in their case, there was something wrong and they were actively trying to get to the bottom of the failures. i can understand if tesla were doing the same thing: tracking failure modes of specific parts.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  I'd argue that any reputable car maker would do this.
blattimwind 8y ago
> With tesla, everything has to come from California. Weird to say the least. Normal car shops get spare parts at least once a day, bigger car shops even several times a day, even parts they ordered just that day. Five weeks for a replacement part?!
- londons_explore 8y ago
  Either the logistics system is terrible, or there is a shortage of that part. I'd imagine both. Tesla's logistics seem to 'lose' cars on a regular basis, and I doubt they have a much better process for parts. I bet rather than a nice automated logistics and inventory management system they have a bunch of people with phones and spreadsheets. They also probably have production issues with parts. Simply saying "produce 5 percent additional parts for repairs" is hugely expensive, and not normally doesn't actually solve the problem. Some parts are far more likely to fail than others, and you can't really be sure beforehand. Oh - that part which is likely to fail? Do you want to put a big order in and make a bunch more to cover repairs, or do you want to stop production entirely, get an engineer to redesign the part, retool to make the new part, and restart production, with a slow ramp up? And now that you've had some downtime, are you going to prioritize new cars or repairs?

420codebro 8y ago

Wow - That sounds like a massive logistical efficiency failure. I could even see people tolerating higher prices (as it is a Tesla, etc) - but that long of a delay is insane. I wonder how many Tesla owners regret their purchase after experiencing a crazy-ass long delay like that. To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. However I am also a realist - they have a lot of PR issues that would sink them if they were for example Ford/Chevy/BMW/Mercedes/Audi/etc.

dangrossman 8y ago
> To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. Isn't it strange how often similar posturing appears in comments about Tesla. There aren't any secret SV police that are going to break down your door and take away your "we're saving the world" card if you say something "realist" about Tesla without a disclaimer.
- fisherjeff 8y ago
  Well I think that’s probably because there are a lot of very vocal people who seem to think that negative feedback must mean you’re a short seller and take that as permission to engage non-constructively. Disclaimer: I also want Tesla to succeed
  - gumby 8y ago
    Interesting, as it feels to me like people take anything positive about that company as gospel. Disclaimer: I don't give a fig either way whether the company succeeds or fails though I have a very hard time understanding how they can ever maintain their mkt cap.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      I’m for almost any company succeeding that doesn’t cause a lot of negative externalities and whose business model is you give them money and they give you stuff where in exchange for me getting a produce of value, they can be a profitable on going concern.
    - PButtNutter 8y ago
      The media in general hypes up Tesla way more than any other automaker. Like every Tesla crash makes headlines. Name any other automaker that faces the same scrutiny.
      - wpietri 8y ago
        The media is the one who hypes up Tesla? Musk has pursued an strategy that's built around very aggressive PR. This gives him lower marketing cost and lower cost of capital, so it's a reasonable approach. But he has to take the bad with the good. That includes critical articles as well as the many fawning ones.
      - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
        > Name any other automaker that faces the same scrutiny. Name any other automaker that makes claims like these about their automatic cruise control: "the person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself."[1] [1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/05/23/490104.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/05/23/49...
burger_moon 8y ago
From reading articles on here for years about Teslas, it seems one of the major selling points is that you are expected to not have you car in a shop getting maintenance unlike ICE vehicles. I think most people forget about all the other stuff in that conversation then never considered what it takes to actually get a Tesla serviced because you'd expect it to be like every other car getting repaired.
- ajross 8y ago
  That's mixing three issues though. The fact that Teslas have stuff that can break (obviously true), that they're having supply chain problems with parts that cause long delays (seems true given the linked article), says absolutely nothing about the frequency of Tesla failures. By all accounts they seem to be quite reliable, as you would obviously expect given the lack of the whole fuel/combustion/exhaust and cooling subsystems.
  - dangrossman 8y ago
    > By all accounts they seem to be quite reliable Consumer Reports ranks Tesla #27 out of 29 manufacturers on reliability, and removed its recommendations for their cars. Several other surveys have similarly put Tesla's reliability dead last or nearly there.
    - alain94040 8y ago
      Part of that ranking is due to the baked-in assumptions: for instance you don't lose points for needing an oil change every year. That's just "normal". The fact that a Tesla doesn't need an oil change, somehow, doesn't give it more points with reliability, but if you think from first principles, it should.
      - base698 8y ago
        It does need a $400 annual service though, which you can pay for up front.
PorterDuff 8y ago
"To be clear: I want Tesla to succeed. However I am also a realist " That's my take. Good for them for taking such a huge chance and seeing an opportunity to take a chance on technology that is just now becoming practical. But...I can't see any reason why Toyota won't squash them like a bug in the low and medium end car biz once EV technology becomes a bit better and their adoption is more mainstream. It's a heckuva business to try to make a profit in in any case.
- bobsil1 8y ago
  I drive a Toyota Mirai, brother has a Model 3. Mirai is like a plasticky HP laptop vs. the Tesla's MacBook, not to mention the stillborn hydrogen network or the ML-centric team of Tesla autopilot.
  - bobsil1 8y ago
    I love this. We’re on “Hacker” News, and people are in denial that cars are going software-first :D
    - bobsil1 8y ago
      Hackers Snooze
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  Batteries, mostly. Tesla's battery technology is light years ahead of where anyone else is and their charging network is already better than anyone else out there, including the private companies using standards, and they've just recently made them even better and faster through a software update. If anyone catches up to them, I'll be very, very surprised.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    Didn't Tesla open source all it's patents?[1] I am, really, only a casual observer, so can someone tell me if this means anyone can use their battery tech, and whatever else is important? 1. https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-y...

houqp 8y ago

While this seems very painful for the shop and causing long wait for consumers, it seems like Tesla is being pretty serious about quality control?

userbinator 8y ago
Ironically, it wouldn't surprise me if the aftermarket parts may actually be better --- those companies built their reputation over many years, after all.
- thereisnospork 8y ago
  Aftermarket quality is hit and miss though. In three categories there is usually: A. Chinesium crap that is worse than OEM B. Fair OEM replacement (often same toll manufacturer as OEM) C. Improved quality and/or design to OEM, often to overcome a design oversight (see: Porsche IMS bearings, premium suspension dampers) A healthy aftermarket will have all three available, however it is easy for uninformed (and informed) drivers to wind up with A. Understandable why Tesla would want to avoid that even if theirs isn't a perfect solution.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    Except now you have people waiting over a year for a repair. Seems like their perfect solution is less than perfect.
  - BoorishBears 8y ago
    No shop respectable enough to be Tesla certified is going to try and put “chinesium crap” in your car anyways. The good thing about those cheap parts is they don’t try to pretend to be good parts, they’re “You get what you pay for” exemplified. So if a Tesla certified shop can fix a Tesla with a reputable aftermarket part (which they do for non-Teslas already) why not allow it?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I can't fathom why your comment was downvoted. If the vehicle is within warranty Telsa should provide replacement parts anywhere in the US the next day. If the vehicle is outside of the warranty period the customer should be able to use any replacement part that meets or exceeds specifications. There nothing controversial about this. Edit to add: To be clear, I want Tesla to fail because I think Elon Musk is a massive jerk.

rconti 8y ago

How much of this is because Tesla is new and the aftermarket support isn't there yet? I also see you mention "Tesla certified", but there are plenty of non-certified shops people take their Tesla/Non-Tesla cars to all the time.

threeseed 8y ago
a) Tesla isn't new. b) Plenty of new cars come onto the market and I've never heard of any, ever needing to wait a year for parts. c) If you take it to a non-certified shop it ceases to be Tesla Certified which would mean a big hit to resale value.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Re: b) - exotic cars have this problem a lot, a brand new model of a Lamborghini or a Ferrari usually has zero availablity of parts for 6-12 months after deliveries start, if you get into an accident right at the beginning you might seriously wait a year for a replacement part, in certain states such car would just be lemoned even though the damage might be relatively simple to repair, all because you can't get the parts. On my own AMG I've had to wait 3 months for an engine part specifically because it's sent directly from Affalterbach and they don't exactly keep lots of spares around. Not as bad as a year but I can totally see it happening if your car is not super common.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    This is one among many reasons that almost nobody buys a Lamborghini or Ferrari (and among the people who do, for almost none of them is it their daily driver).
    - idlewords 8y ago
      It's not their daily driver because they're waiting for parts!
    - bigDICK 8y ago
      Why would the truly rich care if one of their toys is damaged? Certainly they have many supercars in their stable. Side note: Wasn't John Carmack using Ferrari's as a daily driver when he wasn't modifying them and when the dealership would sell them to him?

jacques_chester 8y ago

I wanted to defend Tesla by pointing out that spinning up a maintenance network will have substantial lag, since it's a second-order operation. But I read this and I wonder if they're really thinking it through, or doing any modeling of their business. From your description they seem to be doing everything they can do to gum up their own works.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
> spinning up a maintenance network will have substantial lag I don't see why that should be the case, given it's 2019. Tesla could, if it's a warranty repair, just authorise the OEM to send the spare part directly to the customers mechanic. If it's out of warranty, authorise the mechanic to establish a relationship with the OEM. Telsa could see have a view in the which spares when in to which car via communications with the OEM.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  The logistics of parts is one thing. Training and certifying mechanics to install them is a separate thing, since you must also prepare sufficient trainers and certifiers. This not an instantaneous process. There are two stocks with dependent flow rates. Incumbents don't feel this as acutely because they have dealer networks on top of many independent mechanics.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    As far as I’m aware qualified automotive mechanics don’t need training for brew vehicles, but they do need workshop manuals and telephone support. I wouldn’t surprised if new manuals have video links? I can’t see there being anything fundamentally different about Tesla repairs. Many mechanical workshops also employ or engage automotive electricians, so the cross-skill collaboration for the electronics side of the Tesla already exists in the industry. Also, mechanics have been servicing the Prius for years, so they’re not totally unfamiliar with electric vehicles. I don’t know how the dealer networks help? By all accounts here in Australia the dealers employ none to very few of the good mechanics, rather they’ve all left for higher pay / better conditions elsewhere. Maybe I’m wrong about my pondering above, but my larger point of getting parts swiftly to the repairer certainly couldn’t make things worse.

jerrysievert 8y ago

> Tesla sometimes makes you do weird things like ship the old arms/linkage/etc.. back to them. Other times you might need to take pictures expressly for them, or call them after work is completed. to be fair, mazda had the same requirements when my dealership was making engine repairs on my mx5 ... in their case, there was something wrong and they were actively trying to get to the bottom of the failures. i can understand if tesla were doing the same thing: tracking failure modes of specific parts.

EADGBE 8y ago
I'd argue that any reputable car maker would do this.

blattimwind 8y ago

> With tesla, everything has to come from California. Weird to say the least. Normal car shops get spare parts at least once a day, bigger car shops even several times a day, even parts they ordered just that day. Five weeks for a replacement part?!

londons_explore 8y ago
Either the logistics system is terrible, or there is a shortage of that part. I'd imagine both. Tesla's logistics seem to 'lose' cars on a regular basis, and I doubt they have a much better process for parts. I bet rather than a nice automated logistics and inventory management system they have a bunch of people with phones and spreadsheets. They also probably have production issues with parts. Simply saying "produce 5 percent additional parts for repairs" is hugely expensive, and not normally doesn't actually solve the problem. Some parts are far more likely to fail than others, and you can't really be sure beforehand. Oh - that part which is likely to fail? Do you want to put a big order in and make a bunch more to cover repairs, or do you want to stop production entirely, get an engineer to redesign the part, retool to make the new part, and restart production, with a slow ramp up? And now that you've had some downtime, are you going to prioritize new cars or repairs?