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> Officers uncovered a customs-related offence during 38 per cent of those searches, said the agency. I really want to understand what kind of digital data is

> Officers uncovered a customs-related offence during 38 per cent of those searches, said the agency. I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence.

kejaed 7y ago
There’s a reality tv show that follows the Canadian border patrol, in the couple episodes I’ve seen the agents have found emails about the person crossing actually going for work when they say for tourism or visiting family.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  I mean, to be honest, that's probably illegal, but I have never liked trading freedom for security.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    People love trading other people's freedom for security. Especially if it has to do with immigration.
    - noarchy 7y ago
      I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, it seems entirely correct, given the prevailing political climate.
      - CrowFly 7y ago
        Because it's not the topic we're discussing.
      - Fogest 7y ago
        And unfortunately this is often how they get away with doing stuff like this. People scream "my privacy!", government replies "but illegal immigrants?!?!", and people are like "ah all good then, I've got nothing to hide!". It's just so dumb, and I've heard a lot of older people especially who will say the common "Why is it a problem if you've got nothing to hide?". I think some people fail to understand the kind of data people can have stored, and how much of some people's lives are part of their digital devices. I'm sure they wouldn't want police coming into their house and searching it.
    - screye 7y ago
      Immigration : the government's favorite scape goat.
      - pjc50 7y ago
        Let's be clear, it's not just the government but a large chunk of media and voters using immigrants as a scapegoat.
        ultrarunner 7y ago
        As much as they may like to, I've yet to have armed agents of CNN et al demand to search my electronics.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      Yep - that is why many love profiling - security theater that doesn't even inconvenience them because they are the "right people". Plus it focuses on "the bad people". Even though it has a trivial workaround of not looking the part. The Lod Airport Massacre "terrorism swap" with Japanese Red Army Terrorists and Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-External Operations in 1972 shows just how useless it is as a measure.
- msie 7y ago
  I watch that show too much and it seems there is nothing they can't search or if they can't get access to they'll confiscate and send the device to some lab in Ottawa. If the intent of the show is to portray them as *ssholes then mission accomplished.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    US Customs has the same power, within 100 miles of all borders. It's rarely used, but this means they have nearly unlimited search abilities over about 65% of the population. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-patrols-100-mile-zone-probably-you-mapped/558275/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-p...
- gist 7y ago
  I watch that show as well. But I don't remember if they simply asked the person if they could search or demanded that they be able to search. Anyone who watches reality tv (for example 'Live PD') knows there are many cases where the police officer simply gains consent from the suspect for a search without any particular legal reason or right to do so. Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant (this is from memory and not a legal opinion that I have researched).
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant They can't extend the traffic stop to bring in the dogs unless they have reasonable suspicion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_v._United_States
claudiawerner 7y ago
There are cases at the Canadian border in which the investigators search for "boy" or "girl" using the Windows search tools to see if there is child pornography on your device. In other circumstances, they uncover hentai[0] showing characters that appear to be underage - and bringing that into Canada is illegal (in fact, much like Australia and New Zealand, any sexual depiction of fictional minors is illegal, and that can include stories or other text). There are anecdotal and well-documented cases for the latter[1]. One Reddit user claimed that the investigators at the border found browser-cached thumbnails of such material (since it used to be permitted on Redddit) and he was jailed for a day or something like that. Not to suggest that all of the 38% count for that, but with the popularity of drawn pornography I'd wager it makes up a sizable chunk. [0] Hentai refers to anime-style drawings of fictional characters. [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canadian+border+hentai https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canadian+...
- leetrout 7y ago
  Doesn’t that make Season 1 of Californication illegal since David Duchovny’s character has sex with a portrayed 16 year old girl (with full frontal nudity)?
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    The representation has to be pornographic; I should have clarified. That said, "borderline" pornography, including a "chibi" (characters drawn with no definition or detail, no genitalia visible) parody of a famous Japanese print, were prosecuted in Canada[0]. If I could I would link the image in question if you wanted to see just how ridiculous this prosecution was. [0] https://www.cbr.com/canadian-court-drops-criminal-charges-in-manga-customs-case/ https://www.cbr.com/canadian-court-drops-criminal-charges-in...
- beagle3 7y ago
  Is there an exception for religious texts? There are Is more than one common religions whose holy texts depict sexual activity with minors. Also, if I have a copy of Nabokov “Lolita” on my kindle, will I get in trouble? Stephen King’s It? An apt pupil?
gruez 7y ago
I'm more surprised at the 38% true positive rate. If you consider false positives, it would mean that they are shockingly good at profiling and most criminals are dumb enough to leave obvious evidence on their phone, or an overwhelming majority of people have committed a "customs-related offence" so that you could pick anyone and they would be guilty.
- fhbdukfrh 7y ago
  I would think most offenses are for improper entry, visa, etc. If you were entering to work on a tourism visa I think it would be very easy to find proof in a simple email, text or document.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Plus it isn't hard to pick out people crossing consistently for work.
    - andy_ppp 7y ago
      I mean what counts as work and where it occurs are becoming very difficult to manage? What happens if you have to do work while on a real holiday, should you be deported for this? Is it valid to allow these searches for these sort of offences, it seems like at some point everyone will be guilty of doing these things.
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        I wonder this myself. There is a difference between traveling for the purposes of work, and working while traveling. I have a 100% remote position. I normally do my work in the US. I've considered flying to Europe for a few weeks, where due to time zone differences I could do touristy stuff during the day and then work my US 9-5 shift in the EU evening. This would allow me to travel but to not take vacation time. Would this require a work visa?
        7y ago
dontbenebby 7y ago
>I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence. Photo of someone smoking a joint in a legally (at the state level) operated dispensary. A pirated MP3 or video file. There's all sorts of minor "customs violations" that would come into view looking through a device that frankly, aren't serious enough to warrant the violation of privacy.
- ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
  > A pirated MP3 or video file In the first place, piracy is not illegal in Canada. Provisions surrounding copyright violations fall under bill C11, and that's a civil juncture, not a criminal one. So CBSA agents wouldn't be looking for that in the first place, nor would they have any grounds to do anything about it, since they aren't the rightsholders. And even if they did, they have an interesting burden of proof in proving a given file was obtained via piracy. And what would they do? Detain you indefinitely because they want to "have a discussion" about some pirated Katy Perry song? I would agree that photos of doing drugs could be met with refusal at the border, but be reasonable.
- p2t2p 7y ago
  They are looking for what is called "objectionable material". I don't know about Canada but in Australia it would be importing porn, any CP-like looking things (say porn with young Asian females that look like children and they have no means to check their age) and so on. I don't know full definition but basically they can add and remove stuff to this "objectionably material" list. Possessing data listed there is a crime. Recently, in New Zealand the shooter video go onto that list.
CamperBob2 7y ago
Cardinal Richelieu only needed six lines. Imagine what he could do with 500 GB.
sonnyblarney 7y ago
"what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence" It's not the data, it's what the data reveals. Like an SMS with 'I put $100K in your panama account'. Obviously a bad example but you get the idea.

> Officers uncovered a customs-related offence during 38 per cent of those searches, said the agency. I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence.

kejaed 7y ago

There’s a reality tv show that follows the Canadian border patrol, in the couple episodes I’ve seen the agents have found emails about the person crossing actually going for work when they say for tourism or visiting family.

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
I mean, to be honest, that's probably illegal, but I have never liked trading freedom for security.
- pjc50 7y ago
  People love trading other people's freedom for security. Especially if it has to do with immigration.
  - noarchy 7y ago
    I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, it seems entirely correct, given the prevailing political climate.
    - CrowFly 7y ago
      Because it's not the topic we're discussing.
    - Fogest 7y ago
      And unfortunately this is often how they get away with doing stuff like this. People scream "my privacy!", government replies "but illegal immigrants?!?!", and people are like "ah all good then, I've got nothing to hide!". It's just so dumb, and I've heard a lot of older people especially who will say the common "Why is it a problem if you've got nothing to hide?". I think some people fail to understand the kind of data people can have stored, and how much of some people's lives are part of their digital devices. I'm sure they wouldn't want police coming into their house and searching it.
  - screye 7y ago
    Immigration : the government's favorite scape goat.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      Let's be clear, it's not just the government but a large chunk of media and voters using immigrants as a scapegoat.
      - ultrarunner 7y ago
        As much as they may like to, I've yet to have armed agents of CNN et al demand to search my electronics.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Yep - that is why many love profiling - security theater that doesn't even inconvenience them because they are the "right people". Plus it focuses on "the bad people". Even though it has a trivial workaround of not looking the part. The Lod Airport Massacre "terrorism swap" with Japanese Red Army Terrorists and Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-External Operations in 1972 shows just how useless it is as a measure.
msie 7y ago
I watch that show too much and it seems there is nothing they can't search or if they can't get access to they'll confiscate and send the device to some lab in Ottawa. If the intent of the show is to portray them as *ssholes then mission accomplished.
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  US Customs has the same power, within 100 miles of all borders. It's rarely used, but this means they have nearly unlimited search abilities over about 65% of the population. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-patrols-100-mile-zone-probably-you-mapped/558275/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-p...
gist 7y ago
I watch that show as well. But I don't remember if they simply asked the person if they could search or demanded that they be able to search. Anyone who watches reality tv (for example 'Live PD') knows there are many cases where the police officer simply gains consent from the suspect for a search without any particular legal reason or right to do so. Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant (this is from memory and not a legal opinion that I have researched).
- gruez 7y ago
  >Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant They can't extend the traffic stop to bring in the dogs unless they have reasonable suspicion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_v._United_States

claudiawerner 7y ago

There are cases at the Canadian border in which the investigators search for "boy" or "girl" using the Windows search tools to see if there is child pornography on your device. In other circumstances, they uncover hentai[0] showing characters that appear to be underage - and bringing that into Canada is illegal (in fact, much like Australia and New Zealand, any sexual depiction of fictional minors is illegal, and that can include stories or other text). There are anecdotal and well-documented cases for the latter[1]. One Reddit user claimed that the investigators at the border found browser-cached thumbnails of such material (since it used to be permitted on Redddit) and he was jailed for a day or something like that. Not to suggest that all of the 38% count for that, but with the popularity of drawn pornography I'd wager it makes up a sizable chunk. [0] Hentai refers to anime-style drawings of fictional characters. [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canadian+border+hentai https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canadian+...

leetrout 7y ago
Doesn’t that make Season 1 of Californication illegal since David Duchovny’s character has sex with a portrayed 16 year old girl (with full frontal nudity)?
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  The representation has to be pornographic; I should have clarified. That said, "borderline" pornography, including a "chibi" (characters drawn with no definition or detail, no genitalia visible) parody of a famous Japanese print, were prosecuted in Canada[0]. If I could I would link the image in question if you wanted to see just how ridiculous this prosecution was. [0] https://www.cbr.com/canadian-court-drops-criminal-charges-in-manga-customs-case/ https://www.cbr.com/canadian-court-drops-criminal-charges-in...
beagle3 7y ago
Is there an exception for religious texts? There are Is more than one common religions whose holy texts depict sexual activity with minors. Also, if I have a copy of Nabokov “Lolita” on my kindle, will I get in trouble? Stephen King’s It? An apt pupil?

gruez 7y ago

I'm more surprised at the 38% true positive rate. If you consider false positives, it would mean that they are shockingly good at profiling and most criminals are dumb enough to leave obvious evidence on their phone, or an overwhelming majority of people have committed a "customs-related offence" so that you could pick anyone and they would be guilty.

fhbdukfrh 7y ago
I would think most offenses are for improper entry, visa, etc. If you were entering to work on a tourism visa I think it would be very easy to find proof in a simple email, text or document.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  Plus it isn't hard to pick out people crossing consistently for work.
  - andy_ppp 7y ago
    I mean what counts as work and where it occurs are becoming very difficult to manage? What happens if you have to do work while on a real holiday, should you be deported for this? Is it valid to allow these searches for these sort of offences, it seems like at some point everyone will be guilty of doing these things.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      I wonder this myself. There is a difference between traveling for the purposes of work, and working while traveling. I have a 100% remote position. I normally do my work in the US. I've considered flying to Europe for a few weeks, where due to time zone differences I could do touristy stuff during the day and then work my US 9-5 shift in the EU evening. This would allow me to travel but to not take vacation time. Would this require a work visa?
      - 7y ago

dontbenebby 7y ago

>I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence. Photo of someone smoking a joint in a legally (at the state level) operated dispensary. A pirated MP3 or video file. There's all sorts of minor "customs violations" that would come into view looking through a device that frankly, aren't serious enough to warrant the violation of privacy.

ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
> A pirated MP3 or video file In the first place, piracy is not illegal in Canada. Provisions surrounding copyright violations fall under bill C11, and that's a civil juncture, not a criminal one. So CBSA agents wouldn't be looking for that in the first place, nor would they have any grounds to do anything about it, since they aren't the rightsholders. And even if they did, they have an interesting burden of proof in proving a given file was obtained via piracy. And what would they do? Detain you indefinitely because they want to "have a discussion" about some pirated Katy Perry song? I would agree that photos of doing drugs could be met with refusal at the border, but be reasonable.
p2t2p 7y ago
They are looking for what is called "objectionable material". I don't know about Canada but in Australia it would be importing porn, any CP-like looking things (say porn with young Asian females that look like children and they have no means to check their age) and so on. I don't know full definition but basically they can add and remove stuff to this "objectionably material" list. Possessing data listed there is a crime. Recently, in New Zealand the shooter video go onto that list.

CamperBob2 7y ago

Cardinal Richelieu only needed six lines. Imagine what he could do with 500 GB.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

"what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence" It's not the data, it's what the data reveals. Like an SMS with 'I put $100K in your panama account'. Obviously a bad example but you get the idea.