4 ms·

What a ridiculous over simplification. Those are great qualities, but they also describe most dogs.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Trades are taught in apprenticeships, IT and SWE can be taught on the job and in boot camps. Barge captains are taught out of high school on the job, same with construction, retail, hospitality. What cant be? Doctors, lawyers, and a few other deep knowledge niches. Some jobs require lots of formal education, most jobs do not. I’d never recommend an MBA to someone now that YC’s Startup School is available online. A gross simplification doesn’t mean the thesis is wrong.
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  No, it is wrong or at least unsubstantiated. Why are the qualities listed the most important skills? When was the last time a tech interview focused on "grit", but totally ignored analytical thinking? If its ok to assume an employer will teach you algorithms, why not assume they will teach you to be more empathetic as well?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    The qualities I listed are based on 20 years of hiring and work experience in the tech industry. I encourage competitors to continue to demand algorithm competency and other domain specific knowledge easily referenced. Send the smart, hard working, decent people who need to be taught my way so I may level them up.
    - suff 7y ago
      The whiteboard is the great equalizer.
      - nradov 7y ago
        Ability to write toy code on a whiteboard has almost zero correlation with actual competence in real software development. It's a lazy, cargo cult interviewing technique.
    - Skunkleton 7y ago
      So you originally listed "grit, determination, and empathy". Now you add "smart, hard working, decent". See my point?
      - toomuchtodo 7y ago
        Smart people are curious, hard working people have grit, and decent people have empathy. Where’s the disconnect? You feel like I’m moving the goalposts, I feel like this is just common sense. My apologies if I didn’t make my thoughts more clear.
        tastroder 7y ago
        >Where’s the disconnect? I see a disconnect in the way you describe those people and the motivation I'd generally ascribe to persons with these traits. Smart and hard working folk often seek the path of higher ed because it has more to offer than a random job with X months of training that's unlikely to be challenging, why would they be interested in that? Aside: does the US still not have IT apprenticeships?
        toomuchtodo 7y ago
        Most smart people I know have no degree and learned on the job. I know many more people that regret their degree and the money and time spent then don’t. A random job pays you and provides skills and networking opportunities, a degree is a cost center with no guarantee of ROI. American IT apprenticeships are unofficial, and usually start as junior sysadmin/networking/infra/SWE roles, although I do know people who started as customer service or business analysts who transitioned to the tech side due to aptitude. Side note: There are large enterprises who are publicly announcing they’re dropping a degree requirement for their roles. Definitely points to where the market is headed.
        tastroder 7y ago
        Guess we might chalk that up to regional differences, around here employees have a wide range of possibilities (including paid apprenticeships that likely come close to what you have in mind) and switching industries afterwards is kind of rare, at least in mentally demanding positions. I don't really see your side note happening here in Germany, for higher level positions dropping degree requirements is (in my experience) usually only done post factum if a fitting applicant happens to appear, usually with relevant experience instead. In my view that reflects a lack of formal education in the applicant pool more than it does changing requirements in the market.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  I am a self taught programmer but my mechanical engineering degree definitely helps me understanding a lot of math and just with the general approach to problem solving. The stuff I learned and had to understand in thermodynamics helps me with my programming. I wouldn't want to miss that. However, I agree that employers should do much more on-the-job training. In my company there is almost no formal training for newcomers and it shows. A lot of guys get stuck at beginner level and never advance from there. One thing I like to see in people now is that they have a wider look at the industry besides their direct work. I have a seen a ton of .NET devs who don't know what Haskell, Kotlin or Node is. I like people who read stuff like tech blogs to keep up to date.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    If you’re a self taught programmer, would you not have self taught yourself the necessary math? You’re auto didactic (You needed to learn how to program, and you found the necessary resources to teach you what you needed to know), and it sounds like you have the ability to identify your education gaps and fill them when necessary; a valuable skill in itself. I agree less capable people will need more hand holding, and that processes must be improved for “sorting hat” the student pipeline.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      I don't have the grit or ability to learn differential equations or linear algebra by myself. Learning programming is easy compared to learning math or thermodynamics for example. For example, I like to read about stuff like quantum mechanics but I never bothered learning the math. In school I would been forced to learn it which would probably be useful in some contexts.

Trades are taught in apprenticeships, IT and SWE can be taught on the job and in boot camps. Barge captains are taught out of high school on the job, same with construction, retail, hospitality. What cant be? Doctors, lawyers, and a few other deep knowledge niches. Some jobs require lots of formal education, most jobs do not. I’d never recommend an MBA to someone now that YC’s Startup School is available online. A gross simplification doesn’t mean the thesis is wrong.

Skunkleton 7y ago
No, it is wrong or at least unsubstantiated. Why are the qualities listed the most important skills? When was the last time a tech interview focused on "grit", but totally ignored analytical thinking? If its ok to assume an employer will teach you algorithms, why not assume they will teach you to be more empathetic as well?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  The qualities I listed are based on 20 years of hiring and work experience in the tech industry. I encourage competitors to continue to demand algorithm competency and other domain specific knowledge easily referenced. Send the smart, hard working, decent people who need to be taught my way so I may level them up.
  - suff 7y ago
    The whiteboard is the great equalizer.
    - nradov 7y ago
      Ability to write toy code on a whiteboard has almost zero correlation with actual competence in real software development. It's a lazy, cargo cult interviewing technique.
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    So you originally listed "grit, determination, and empathy". Now you add "smart, hard working, decent". See my point?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Smart people are curious, hard working people have grit, and decent people have empathy. Where’s the disconnect? You feel like I’m moving the goalposts, I feel like this is just common sense. My apologies if I didn’t make my thoughts more clear.
      - tastroder 7y ago
        >Where’s the disconnect? I see a disconnect in the way you describe those people and the motivation I'd generally ascribe to persons with these traits. Smart and hard working folk often seek the path of higher ed because it has more to offer than a random job with X months of training that's unlikely to be challenging, why would they be interested in that? Aside: does the US still not have IT apprenticeships?
        toomuchtodo 7y ago
        Most smart people I know have no degree and learned on the job. I know many more people that regret their degree and the money and time spent then don’t. A random job pays you and provides skills and networking opportunities, a degree is a cost center with no guarantee of ROI. American IT apprenticeships are unofficial, and usually start as junior sysadmin/networking/infra/SWE roles, although I do know people who started as customer service or business analysts who transitioned to the tech side due to aptitude. Side note: There are large enterprises who are publicly announcing they’re dropping a degree requirement for their roles. Definitely points to where the market is headed.
        tastroder 7y ago
        Guess we might chalk that up to regional differences, around here employees have a wide range of possibilities (including paid apprenticeships that likely come close to what you have in mind) and switching industries afterwards is kind of rare, at least in mentally demanding positions. I don't really see your side note happening here in Germany, for higher level positions dropping degree requirements is (in my experience) usually only done post factum if a fitting applicant happens to appear, usually with relevant experience instead. In my view that reflects a lack of formal education in the applicant pool more than it does changing requirements in the market.
maxxxxx 7y ago
I am a self taught programmer but my mechanical engineering degree definitely helps me understanding a lot of math and just with the general approach to problem solving. The stuff I learned and had to understand in thermodynamics helps me with my programming. I wouldn't want to miss that. However, I agree that employers should do much more on-the-job training. In my company there is almost no formal training for newcomers and it shows. A lot of guys get stuck at beginner level and never advance from there. One thing I like to see in people now is that they have a wider look at the industry besides their direct work. I have a seen a ton of .NET devs who don't know what Haskell, Kotlin or Node is. I like people who read stuff like tech blogs to keep up to date.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  If you’re a self taught programmer, would you not have self taught yourself the necessary math? You’re auto didactic (You needed to learn how to program, and you found the necessary resources to teach you what you needed to know), and it sounds like you have the ability to identify your education gaps and fill them when necessary; a valuable skill in itself. I agree less capable people will need more hand holding, and that processes must be improved for “sorting hat” the student pipeline.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    I don't have the grit or ability to learn differential equations or linear algebra by myself. Learning programming is easy compared to learning math or thermodynamics for example. For example, I like to read about stuff like quantum mechanics but I never bothered learning the math. In school I would been forced to learn it which would probably be useful in some contexts.