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I actually find the evolution of this blatant, shameless propaganda amusing. You could actually observe, in real-time, the ramping up of accusations and headli

I actually find the evolution of this blatant, shameless propaganda amusing. You could actually observe, in real-time, the ramping up of accusations and headline hysterics in sequence: 1. 50k muslims detained 2. 100k muslims detained and put into re-education camps 3. 500k muslims arrested and put into concentration camps! 4. One million muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration camps and getting their organs harvested! 5. Three million muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration camps, getting organs harvested and being brutally tortured! It's easy to see how Americans were so readily misled about Iraq.

Noos 7y ago
Is it true, though? You are arguing that its baseless propaganda without refuting anything. Just that the evolution of the claims has gotten more severe. The best argument if so is just the truth. Link sources and publish things showing there really aren't 3 million people detained or that it's not a camp-style thing. The problem with Iraq is that Saddam simply could have told the truth and let UN inspectors in, but he often stonewalled and acted in a way that made it hard to not worry what he was doing...and oh, the whole invading another country thing.
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  The burden of proof is not on me to prove they aren't doing these things. The burden of proof is on those doing the accusing. As in the case of Huawei, there has not been one objective shred of proof. And no, I don't consider WaPo, NYT, and its ilk anywhere near objective journalism. If the lack of proof is because the CCP is denying journalists access to Xinjiang, then how can there be any conclusive evidence? Are they going to invade and bomb China to find the existence or non-existence of such evidence?
  - EGreg 7y ago
    Look, I don’t know if you are arguing in good faith or you’re a person who shills for the Chinese government but I’ll assume the former. The burden of proof, you say, is on those doing the accusing. Well, let’s see: We have entire Uyghur villages with markets that are now no longer active. Many of the people are mysteriously gone. We have tons of Uyghur families with relatives gone missing or reported arrested. We have actual buildings that are being used as prisons for these Uyghurs. We have testimony from people who were held in these camps. They say they saw many of those they knew. We have video from inside these camps, and it’s pretty clear people are held there against their will. NOW HERE IS THE KICKER: It’s not US propaganda. The Chinese government has already been accused by the following groups: Falun Dafa practitioners Tibetan Buddhists Christian Missionaries and has “defended” itself for years with an army of disinfo agents, in some cases the “defenses” are extremely limited and lame. For example Tibetan buddhists are accused of being slaveholders. Falun Dafa is public enemy #1 because they “say being gay is bad” and “lead people to do self immolation”. In reality, Falun Dafa is a peaceful religion that has long been persecuted, since 1999 when Jiang Xemin personally oversaw its destruction, including many of the same tactics, such as extrajudicial kidnappings and reeducation centers. The numbers were justas staggering. So there are already multiple groups for 19 years that are being targeted by the CCP and we are supposed to think they are all making this up and the CCP isn’t targeting them? It’s always the same story. Some small subgroup does some violence, or in the case of China, just merely shows some organization or protest (as Falun Dafa peacefully did against cartoons). That is enough for EVERY member of that group to now be targeted for indefinite detention, and worse. Jews didn’t believe in the existence of Nazi concentration camps and no one could imagine a civilized country like Germany would do such a thing. Denying journalists access looks really bad. Now to be fair, we are talking about internment and re-education camps, not concentration camps for Uyghurs. Probably something worse than what FDR did to the Japanese. Why should the world stand by and be silent?
    - dang 7y ago
      Insinuating that someone is shilling is explicitly against the site guidelines. Saying you're not saying it is saying it. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here. And please keep nationalistic flamewar far away from this site.
      - EGreg 7y ago
        Thanks, reviewed. Sorry about the shilling comment. It was referencing to something the commenter themselves said, and others have also mentioned, given his recent comment history on several threads going back over a week: Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP _shill_ 50c poster anyway. But I am confused about nationalistic flamewar as distinct from discussing the topic of the original post. Its veracity was actively questioned by the commenter in several comments, who asked for proof. Since the welfare of large numbers of people is at stake, it’s important to make sure whether this is happening or not. I am sure it would be the same conversation whether the nation was China, India, USA, and so on. If this is indeed not happening, that is very important also. In any case I thought I was directly addressing the topic. I am personally very far from nationalistic so I want to understand better how my comment comes across.
        dang 7y ago
        If a comment goes through the Uyghurs, Falun Gong and Tibet on its way to Nazis, I think it's safe to say that intellectual curiosity has fled, making the comment off topic for Hacker News. Many vitally important topics are off topic for Hacker News. Most of them, in fact. This is a specific kind of website, for smaller, curious topics—the kind that are the first to drown in a political deluge.
      - originldirgibl 7y ago
        This feels like an overly broad and disingenuous interpretation of the word shilling. He provided an alternative view, bolstered with facts (and yes, went overboard with Nazism comparisons).
  - originldirgibl 7y ago
    There has been plenty of proof. See my other comments. There has not been any proof that they don't exist. If you're making a positive claim you need to add sources. Otherwise you're getting into a celestial teapot argument. "Can't disprove it so it has to be true."
aaronbrethorst 7y ago
Weird, maybe the number of Uighur people that have been remanded to these camps has increased over time. Meanwhile, I don't get the sense that you want to discuss this in good faith, so I'll just end things here, but first I want to add that people who want to learn more about the Xinjiang internment camps should listen to this highly informative podcast: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/uncovering-china-s-secret-internment-camps-rian-thum-podcast-transcript-ncna998116 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/uncovering-china-s-sec...
tomohawk 7y ago
The CCP (Chinese Communist Pary) is locking up people due to their ethnicity and/or beliefs. Inside the concentration camps, they are attempting to indoctrinate the people into CCP dogma, and away from their traditional beliefs. They are also using them for slave labor. Outside the camps, the CCP has installed suffocating surveilance systems to watch every action. They also have placed people into apartment blocks to watch their neighbors, installing card readers in the homes of people being watched that the watchers must swipe a card in to prove that they're being diligent. The only hysteria I see is in your post.
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars and executed on the street while coming home from work, with 2000 more injured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... There are videos of this readily available. It'd be like if hundreds of white people were butchered by thousands of anonymous black people for the sole reason of being white in Detroit. What would be the appropriate government response to such an event? Mass incarceration? I mean, in such a context, can "re-education" camps not be viewed as a relatively mild response? This is not to say that it's an ideal response, but certainly it's not the worst an authoritative government could have done. In response to your point about surveillance, the Urumqi riots began because a false rumour about the rape of two Uighur women in a Han Chinese factory spread on WeChat, fuelling hate, outrage and unrest. Because this is how things work in an uneducated population. Just look up the number of lynchings, burnings and stonings in rural Indian villages based off of false rumours spread on social media. This is not the same country as your country, these are not the same people as your people. China is a developing nation with an uneducated but heavily interconnected population, a combination heavily conducive to destabilization from both internal and external actors. For this reason, their government will not hesitate to stamp out, censor, surveil whatever it is they need to in order to preserve stability. You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies - any attempt to do so is simply naive and misguided.
elliekelly 7y ago
It seems a lot of your recent comment history is defensive of the status quo in China. I'd be curious to know your background. Do you live there?
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  I am not defensive of the status quo in China. I'm simply presenting an alternative viewpoint to the recent, ongoing anti-China media/social-media blitz campaign. Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP shill 50c poster anyway.
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    Apologies, I didn't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Can you help me understand what makes the reports on the Chinese government's detention of Muslims propaganda rather than news?
    - tepidandroid 7y ago
      The lack of objective, conclusive evidence. The lack of a cohesive and consistent narrative. The current geopolitical climate.
      - elliekelly 7y ago
        > The lack of objective, conclusive evidence. It's my understanding that the Chinese government has acknowledged and even run television commercials, such as this one[1] about the camps. Chinese officials have also made several comments to Chinese newspapers about the existence of the camps[2, 3] and have commented that the purpose of those camps is "reeducation" and to "reform extremism" through labor. The comments also note the purpose of the camps is to prevent terrorism and "separatists" by forcing them to speak the language of the "homeland" which seems to indicate the camps are predominantly intended for Muslims. Satellite images[4] of the camps indicate the rapid growth of the facilities and the existence of watch towers, redundant high walls, and barbed wire would least most reasonable people to agree these facilities are built to house people against their will. The Chinese government has also acknowledged as much. For example, the Government has repeatedly pointed to the "Opinions on Several Issues on the Application of Law in Cases of Terrorist Activities and Extremism Crimes"[5] as the legal justification for the imprisonment of "terrorist extremists." However one of the "extremist" activities that can be used to imprison someone is "inciting" people to hold a religious marriage ceremony. The document also allows for "administrative punishment" without a trial or conviction. One analysis of arrests (using data reported by the Chinese government) showed 21% of all 2017 arrests in the country were in the Muslim region of Xinjiang.[6] Given the region accounts for only 1.5% of the total population of China the arrests of ethnic Muslims seems disproportionately high. We admittedly don't have exact data on the number of people imprisoned against their will but people have been able to estimate given the number and size of facilities built and by using job postings/factory information available online. Even if we only looked at the evidence provided by the Chinese government we can objectively conclude that: (a) These labor camps exist; (b) These camps detain people without a trial or conviction; (c) The primary purpose of these camps is to "reform" ethnic Muslims living in the Xinjiang region; and (d) At *least* 500,000 people from the region have been sent to these camps. Given that the source of all of the information I've outlined above is the Chinese government can you be more specific about the "objective, conclusive evidence" you'd need to consider the information reliable? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU [2A - Requires Google Translate] http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_570748.htm http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_5707... [2B - "Full" English Transcript is missing significant portions compared to 2A] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm [3] http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html [4] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo... [5] https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8A%9E%E7%90%86%E6%81%90%E6%80%96%E6%B4%BB%E5%8A%A8%E5%92%8C%E6%9E%81%E7%AB%AF%E4%B8%BB%E4%B9%89%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E6%A1%88%E4%BB%B6%E9%80%82%E7%94%A8%E6%B3%95%E5%BE%8B%E8%8B%A5/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8... [6] https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-account-for-21-of-chinas-total-in-2017/ https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-a...
originldirgibl 7y ago
One, you should provide citations for the numbers specified in your claims, otherwise they are an ad absurdum argument. And two, maybe the number did increase? It's been reported by multiple sources in multiple countries, and been addressed by the UN (see my previous comment with sources), I don't know what other burden of support you could logically need.

Noos 7y ago

Is it true, though? You are arguing that its baseless propaganda without refuting anything. Just that the evolution of the claims has gotten more severe. The best argument if so is just the truth. Link sources and publish things showing there really aren't 3 million people detained or that it's not a camp-style thing. The problem with Iraq is that Saddam simply could have told the truth and let UN inspectors in, but he often stonewalled and acted in a way that made it hard to not worry what he was doing...and oh, the whole invading another country thing.

tepidandroid 7y ago
The burden of proof is not on me to prove they aren't doing these things. The burden of proof is on those doing the accusing. As in the case of Huawei, there has not been one objective shred of proof. And no, I don't consider WaPo, NYT, and its ilk anywhere near objective journalism. If the lack of proof is because the CCP is denying journalists access to Xinjiang, then how can there be any conclusive evidence? Are they going to invade and bomb China to find the existence or non-existence of such evidence?
- EGreg 7y ago
  Look, I don’t know if you are arguing in good faith or you’re a person who shills for the Chinese government but I’ll assume the former. The burden of proof, you say, is on those doing the accusing. Well, let’s see: We have entire Uyghur villages with markets that are now no longer active. Many of the people are mysteriously gone. We have tons of Uyghur families with relatives gone missing or reported arrested. We have actual buildings that are being used as prisons for these Uyghurs. We have testimony from people who were held in these camps. They say they saw many of those they knew. We have video from inside these camps, and it’s pretty clear people are held there against their will. NOW HERE IS THE KICKER: It’s not US propaganda. The Chinese government has already been accused by the following groups: Falun Dafa practitioners Tibetan Buddhists Christian Missionaries and has “defended” itself for years with an army of disinfo agents, in some cases the “defenses” are extremely limited and lame. For example Tibetan buddhists are accused of being slaveholders. Falun Dafa is public enemy #1 because they “say being gay is bad” and “lead people to do self immolation”. In reality, Falun Dafa is a peaceful religion that has long been persecuted, since 1999 when Jiang Xemin personally oversaw its destruction, including many of the same tactics, such as extrajudicial kidnappings and reeducation centers. The numbers were justas staggering. So there are already multiple groups for 19 years that are being targeted by the CCP and we are supposed to think they are all making this up and the CCP isn’t targeting them? It’s always the same story. Some small subgroup does some violence, or in the case of China, just merely shows some organization or protest (as Falun Dafa peacefully did against cartoons). That is enough for EVERY member of that group to now be targeted for indefinite detention, and worse. Jews didn’t believe in the existence of Nazi concentration camps and no one could imagine a civilized country like Germany would do such a thing. Denying journalists access looks really bad. Now to be fair, we are talking about internment and re-education camps, not concentration camps for Uyghurs. Probably something worse than what FDR did to the Japanese. Why should the world stand by and be silent?
  - dang 7y ago
    Insinuating that someone is shilling is explicitly against the site guidelines. Saying you're not saying it is saying it. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here. And please keep nationalistic flamewar far away from this site.
    - EGreg 7y ago
      Thanks, reviewed. Sorry about the shilling comment. It was referencing to something the commenter themselves said, and others have also mentioned, given his recent comment history on several threads going back over a week: Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP _shill_ 50c poster anyway. But I am confused about nationalistic flamewar as distinct from discussing the topic of the original post. Its veracity was actively questioned by the commenter in several comments, who asked for proof. Since the welfare of large numbers of people is at stake, it’s important to make sure whether this is happening or not. I am sure it would be the same conversation whether the nation was China, India, USA, and so on. If this is indeed not happening, that is very important also. In any case I thought I was directly addressing the topic. I am personally very far from nationalistic so I want to understand better how my comment comes across.
      - dang 7y ago
        If a comment goes through the Uyghurs, Falun Gong and Tibet on its way to Nazis, I think it's safe to say that intellectual curiosity has fled, making the comment off topic for Hacker News. Many vitally important topics are off topic for Hacker News. Most of them, in fact. This is a specific kind of website, for smaller, curious topics—the kind that are the first to drown in a political deluge.
    - originldirgibl 7y ago
      This feels like an overly broad and disingenuous interpretation of the word shilling. He provided an alternative view, bolstered with facts (and yes, went overboard with Nazism comparisons).
- originldirgibl 7y ago
  There has been plenty of proof. See my other comments. There has not been any proof that they don't exist. If you're making a positive claim you need to add sources. Otherwise you're getting into a celestial teapot argument. "Can't disprove it so it has to be true."

aaronbrethorst 7y ago

Weird, maybe the number of Uighur people that have been remanded to these camps has increased over time. Meanwhile, I don't get the sense that you want to discuss this in good faith, so I'll just end things here, but first I want to add that people who want to learn more about the Xinjiang internment camps should listen to this highly informative podcast: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/uncovering-china-s-secret-internment-camps-rian-thum-podcast-transcript-ncna998116 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/uncovering-china-s-sec...

tomohawk 7y ago

The CCP (Chinese Communist Pary) is locking up people due to their ethnicity and/or beliefs. Inside the concentration camps, they are attempting to indoctrinate the people into CCP dogma, and away from their traditional beliefs. They are also using them for slave labor. Outside the camps, the CCP has installed suffocating surveilance systems to watch every action. They also have placed people into apartment blocks to watch their neighbors, installing card readers in the homes of people being watched that the watchers must swipe a card in to prove that they're being diligent. The only hysteria I see is in your post.

tepidandroid 7y ago
It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars and executed on the street while coming home from work, with 2000 more injured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... There are videos of this readily available. It'd be like if hundreds of white people were butchered by thousands of anonymous black people for the sole reason of being white in Detroit. What would be the appropriate government response to such an event? Mass incarceration? I mean, in such a context, can "re-education" camps not be viewed as a relatively mild response? This is not to say that it's an ideal response, but certainly it's not the worst an authoritative government could have done. In response to your point about surveillance, the Urumqi riots began because a false rumour about the rape of two Uighur women in a Han Chinese factory spread on WeChat, fuelling hate, outrage and unrest. Because this is how things work in an uneducated population. Just look up the number of lynchings, burnings and stonings in rural Indian villages based off of false rumours spread on social media. This is not the same country as your country, these are not the same people as your people. China is a developing nation with an uneducated but heavily interconnected population, a combination heavily conducive to destabilization from both internal and external actors. For this reason, their government will not hesitate to stamp out, censor, surveil whatever it is they need to in order to preserve stability. You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies - any attempt to do so is simply naive and misguided.

elliekelly 7y ago

It seems a lot of your recent comment history is defensive of the status quo in China. I'd be curious to know your background. Do you live there?

tepidandroid 7y ago
I am not defensive of the status quo in China. I'm simply presenting an alternative viewpoint to the recent, ongoing anti-China media/social-media blitz campaign. Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP shill 50c poster anyway.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  Apologies, I didn't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Can you help me understand what makes the reports on the Chinese government's detention of Muslims propaganda rather than news?
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    The lack of objective, conclusive evidence. The lack of a cohesive and consistent narrative. The current geopolitical climate.
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      > The lack of objective, conclusive evidence. It's my understanding that the Chinese government has acknowledged and even run television commercials, such as this one[1] about the camps. Chinese officials have also made several comments to Chinese newspapers about the existence of the camps[2, 3] and have commented that the purpose of those camps is "reeducation" and to "reform extremism" through labor. The comments also note the purpose of the camps is to prevent terrorism and "separatists" by forcing them to speak the language of the "homeland" which seems to indicate the camps are predominantly intended for Muslims. Satellite images[4] of the camps indicate the rapid growth of the facilities and the existence of watch towers, redundant high walls, and barbed wire would least most reasonable people to agree these facilities are built to house people against their will. The Chinese government has also acknowledged as much. For example, the Government has repeatedly pointed to the "Opinions on Several Issues on the Application of Law in Cases of Terrorist Activities and Extremism Crimes"[5] as the legal justification for the imprisonment of "terrorist extremists." However one of the "extremist" activities that can be used to imprison someone is "inciting" people to hold a religious marriage ceremony. The document also allows for "administrative punishment" without a trial or conviction. One analysis of arrests (using data reported by the Chinese government) showed 21% of all 2017 arrests in the country were in the Muslim region of Xinjiang.[6] Given the region accounts for only 1.5% of the total population of China the arrests of ethnic Muslims seems disproportionately high. We admittedly don't have exact data on the number of people imprisoned against their will but people have been able to estimate given the number and size of facilities built and by using job postings/factory information available online. Even if we only looked at the evidence provided by the Chinese government we can objectively conclude that: (a) These labor camps exist; (b) These camps detain people without a trial or conviction; (c) The primary purpose of these camps is to "reform" ethnic Muslims living in the Xinjiang region; and (d) At *least* 500,000 people from the region have been sent to these camps. Given that the source of all of the information I've outlined above is the Chinese government can you be more specific about the "objective, conclusive evidence" you'd need to consider the information reliable? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU [2A - Requires Google Translate] http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_570748.htm http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_5707... [2B - "Full" English Transcript is missing significant portions compared to 2A] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm [3] http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html [4] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo... [5] https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8A%9E%E7%90%86%E6%81%90%E6%80%96%E6%B4%BB%E5%8A%A8%E5%92%8C%E6%9E%81%E7%AB%AF%E4%B8%BB%E4%B9%89%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E6%A1%88%E4%BB%B6%E9%80%82%E7%94%A8%E6%B3%95%E5%BE%8B%E8%8B%A5/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8... [6] https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-account-for-21-of-chinas-total-in-2017/ https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-a...

originldirgibl 7y ago

One, you should provide citations for the numbers specified in your claims, otherwise they are an ad absurdum argument. And two, maybe the number did increase? It's been reported by multiple sources in multiple countries, and been addressed by the UN (see my previous comment with sources), I don't know what other burden of support you could logically need.