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The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last f

The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.

pjmlp 7y ago
You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?
- scarface74 7y ago
  iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java. Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects (https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling-the-backend-for-its-maps-service-hints-at-big-plans-to-come/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling...)
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    What matters is that it brings money home. Maps uses Clojure, and is partially developed here in Berlin.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Until you are out there trying to find another job in two years and people start looking at you like an old VB6 or PowerBuilder developer.....
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        You seem really traumatized with whatever happened there regarding jobs. No job is secure.
        scarface74 7y ago
        That’s kind of the point. No job is secure that’s why it’s not a great idea for someone not to keep their skills current with the market and keep their heads down. It’s not hard to project that Windows only development is a dead end when even Microsoft is outright saying that all of its energy is going toward .Net Core and they have been moving toward cross platform development for the last half decade.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Developers that focus in only being good in tech, without any additional skill won't go far. The days of pure coding jobs are over.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Even with being a reformed former team lead, Devops and plenty of AWS infrastructure and development experience and looking for a change to add on Docker and k8s, It still crazy not to have the table stakes of knowing the latest tech.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Plenty of customers still run stuff on premises without any desire to put their precious data on someone's else computer. Docker and k8s are the NoSQL of 2019.
    - iSnow 7y ago
      Wait, what, Apple Maps is partially developed in Berlin?
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Yes, or at least it used to be around two years ago. Just keep monitoring their job openings in Germany.
- rtempaccount1 7y ago
  I'm guessing the use of "as of this date" means that the parent comment is referring to Microsoft and not Apple, as at the moment by market cap, Microsoft is more valuable than apple by about $13billion
- tatersolid 7y ago
  Microsoft is currently the most valuable company in the world.
  - tempodox 7y ago
    And they created a whole language and ecosystem (C# / .Net), even before Oracle bought Sun, so they wouldn't be dependent on a 3rd party for that.
    - gmueckl 7y ago
      Ironically, .NET was created because MS tried and failed to take over the Java ecosystem using an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish approach that ran afoul of SUN's licencing deal with them.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Less ironically, Google managed to create their J++.
  - pridkett 7y ago
    Most valuable _publicly traded_ company. It's pretty well regarded that Saudi Aramco will be in the $1.5 - $2 trillion range when/if it IPOs. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/saudi-crown-prince-says-aramco-ipo-will-happen-by-early-2021.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/saudi-crown-prince-says-aram...
jryle70 7y ago
You're either disingenuous or ignorant of the history of programming languages. MS doesn't use Java because it's a direct competitor to MS's eco systems. Windows isn't required; enterprise software; taking away developer's mindset. Not a decision based on technical merit. MS did have a Java clone 20 years ago, but gave up due to legal threat from Sun and the DOJ lawsuit. Ironically, MS has quite a few of Android apps [0]. Has been for several years. I guess there is at least some Java there. Unless you don't consider Office "core". [0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mobileapps?activetab=pivot_1:coreui-region-rjb15cs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mobileapps?activetab=pivot_1...
bborud 7y ago
Very few developers have access to the decision making process (or risk management imperatives)of executives of large organizations (and vice versa). When big numbers are involved the actual story and what gets told to the public are often entirely different things. This is why the “but we have OpenJDK” argument is practically a non-sequitur, yet seems a valid argument to many. Oracle is, as you say, on the radar primarily because of databases. But it is really the risk of dealing with a company that is likely to screw you if they can do so with sufficient ROI (where the investment is audits and litigation) Developers and CxOs/company boards risk very different things and when things go bad, have very different downsides.

pjmlp 7y ago

You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?

scarface74 7y ago
iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java. Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects (https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling-the-backend-for-its-maps-service-hints-at-big-plans-to-come/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling...)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  What matters is that it brings money home. Maps uses Clojure, and is partially developed here in Berlin.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Until you are out there trying to find another job in two years and people start looking at you like an old VB6 or PowerBuilder developer.....
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      You seem really traumatized with whatever happened there regarding jobs. No job is secure.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        That’s kind of the point. No job is secure that’s why it’s not a great idea for someone not to keep their skills current with the market and keep their heads down. It’s not hard to project that Windows only development is a dead end when even Microsoft is outright saying that all of its energy is going toward .Net Core and they have been moving toward cross platform development for the last half decade.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Developers that focus in only being good in tech, without any additional skill won't go far. The days of pure coding jobs are over.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Even with being a reformed former team lead, Devops and plenty of AWS infrastructure and development experience and looking for a change to add on Docker and k8s, It still crazy not to have the table stakes of knowing the latest tech.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Plenty of customers still run stuff on premises without any desire to put their precious data on someone's else computer. Docker and k8s are the NoSQL of 2019.
  - iSnow 7y ago
    Wait, what, Apple Maps is partially developed in Berlin?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Yes, or at least it used to be around two years ago. Just keep monitoring their job openings in Germany.
rtempaccount1 7y ago
I'm guessing the use of "as of this date" means that the parent comment is referring to Microsoft and not Apple, as at the moment by market cap, Microsoft is more valuable than apple by about $13billion
tatersolid 7y ago
Microsoft is currently the most valuable company in the world.
- tempodox 7y ago
  And they created a whole language and ecosystem (C# / .Net), even before Oracle bought Sun, so they wouldn't be dependent on a 3rd party for that.
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    Ironically, .NET was created because MS tried and failed to take over the Java ecosystem using an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish approach that ran afoul of SUN's licencing deal with them.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Less ironically, Google managed to create their J++.
- pridkett 7y ago
  Most valuable _publicly traded_ company. It's pretty well regarded that Saudi Aramco will be in the $1.5 - $2 trillion range when/if it IPOs. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/saudi-crown-prince-says-aramco-ipo-will-happen-by-early-2021.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/saudi-crown-prince-says-aram...

jryle70 7y ago

You're either disingenuous or ignorant of the history of programming languages. MS doesn't use Java because it's a direct competitor to MS's eco systems. Windows isn't required; enterprise software; taking away developer's mindset. Not a decision based on technical merit. MS did have a Java clone 20 years ago, but gave up due to legal threat from Sun and the DOJ lawsuit. Ironically, MS has quite a few of Android apps [0]. Has been for several years. I guess there is at least some Java there. Unless you don't consider Office "core". [0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mobileapps?activetab=pivot_1:coreui-region-rjb15cs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mobileapps?activetab=pivot_1...

bborud 7y ago

Very few developers have access to the decision making process (or risk management imperatives)of executives of large organizations (and vice versa). When big numbers are involved the actual story and what gets told to the public are often entirely different things. This is why the “but we have OpenJDK” argument is practically a non-sequitur, yet seems a valid argument to many. Oracle is, as you say, on the radar primarily because of databases. But it is really the risk of dealing with a company that is likely to screw you if they can do so with sufficient ROI (where the investment is audits and litigation) Developers and CxOs/company boards risk very different things and when things go bad, have very different downsides.