6 ms·

King Alfred and India

103 points by agronaut 7y ago

lkramer 7y ago
This is interesting, but I don't believe it's all that surprising. Medieval Europe was very well connected. Alfred himself went to Rome when he was a child and had an extensive cultural exchange with mainland Europe. It is also well known, as the article points out, that interactions with Asia was much more widespread than what is perhaps understood by most people today (who still sees it as a dark age). This can also be seen by the fact that Christian communities existed, not only in India, but also in China as early as the 7th Century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Earliest_documented_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Earliest...
- paganel 7y ago
  > Alfred himself went to Rome when he was a child and had an extensive cultural exchange with mainland Europe. There’s also a depiction of King Arthur (Rex Arturus) in a famous mosaic located inside the Otranto cathedral, located in Puglia, Italy [1]. Presumably the mosaic was put in place in the 1160s, give or take a few decades. A bit OT but not by that much, the same Italian city of Otranto was under direct Ottoman control for a year, sometimes in the early 1470s. Most of its Christian residents who had dare resisting were killed, and presumably the final step of the Ottomans’ journey was Rome (I have a quote about this made by Mehmed II somewhere in my books, I’m too lazy to search for it on my phone). Fortunately for Western Christianity Mehmed got caught up in some fierce fights in present day Albania and also in a region of present day Romania (Moldova, to be more exact) so that he had to recall his troups from the Italian peninsula. Which is to say that yes, the East and West have been a lot more involved with each other compared to what most of today’s people assume. [1] http://sites.duke.edu/danteslibrary/files/2016/02/otranto-mosaic-4-king-arthur-1024x796.jpg http://sites.duke.edu/danteslibrary/files/2016/02/otranto-mo...
- heraclius 7y ago
  Indeed, relatedly, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that in 853 Alfred was consecrated king by the Pope; I believe that it is theorised, quite plausibly, that this was an important influence in later life.
Cherian 7y ago
I come from Kerala, the southernmost state in India referenced in the article. My last name is Thomas and every now and then people in the US look at me bewildered when I tell them my name – “But you don’t look Spanish”. I take it as an opportunity to give them a bit of a history lesson – “Do you know Christianity came to India 14 centuries before the US? And Columbus was looking for these Indians selling black pepper?” Surprises people so much to know that Christianity exists in India, let alone that St. Thomas died in India [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle
- simonh 7y ago
  A lot of people think Marco Polo was the first European to travel to the far east, but in fact his father and Uncle at least had already been there and he travelled back with them. This sort of travel along the silk routes had probably been going on since Roman times at least, and if so why not the spice routes to India and beyond as well?.
- neximo64 7y ago
  Similarly one wonders how chilli peppers are so prolific in Asian cuisine, but were only introduced during the columbian exchange.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Like potatoes in the British Isles. Do you mean how (the method by which it was achieved)? Perhaps you really wanted to know why? You might also compare coffee, and tea, there. I imagine it's about fashion really, the new product usurps the old, it garners higher prices initially, then there's a glut, unless there's a reason to go back the product becomes entrenched.
    - danmaz74 7y ago
      As far as I know, producing chilli is much easier than producing pepper.
  - 7y ago
thrwoqewe1231 7y ago
Seems like more bullshit propaganda to 'harvest' the remaining of the 'pagans'. http://indiafacts.org/the-myth-of-st-thomas-part-one/ http://indiafacts.org/the-myth-of-st-thomas-part-one/ See, Joshua project, and USAID, and the dying Christian churches in the West are being used together with statecraft to make India a bigger prostitute than she already is at the point (what with linguistic and cultural destruction over the past centuries).
benj111 7y ago
So I take it that island at the far east of the map is Japan? Its interesting how they thought the Nile came from Asia. And what's with Scandinavia missing?
- valarauko 7y ago
  The large labelled island at the very top is Taprobane, the name by which the ancient Greeks knew Sri Lanka. It was believed to be as large as Great Britain. The text reads: "Tabrobanen habet x ciuitates, bis in anno merita [corruption of metit?] fruges", which translates as "Taprobane has ten cities, [and] twice a year reaps crops/fruits."
jillesvangurp 7y ago
The Last Kingdom on Netflix is a pretty decent series about this time. Sort of a non fantasy version of Game of Thrones. I think there are probably a fair bit of historical inaccuracies in there but nevertheless a fascinating time and decent series. I ended up reading up on wikipedia about several of the characters (at least the non fictional ones).
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  Thanks for mentioning. I was looking for such a series. As per Wikipedia, it's historical fiction. So, wouldn't it be somewhat different than real history?
  - benplumley 7y ago
    If the show is true to the books, it's fiction in the sense that individual characters and minor events are made up, but the historical setting and major events are close to accurate. After all, you can't realistically make it completely historically accurate down to the names of minor characters, simply because they weren't documented (or the documents didn't survive).
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    It's a romanticized version of several events that actually took place featuring e.g. King Alfred and other historical characters. While there are some written records from that era, there's not much to go on. It was called the dark middle ages for a reason. So, the script writers probably took quite a bit of liberties as did the author of the books this series is based on: http://www.bernardcornwell.net/series/the-last-kingdom-series/ http://www.bernardcornwell.net/series/the-last-kingdom-serie.... I haven't actually read the books; so I can't vouch for those. But if you are interested, I can recommend Hild by Nicola Grifith which is a good read about roughly the same era.
danans 7y ago
There were networks of trade far older than even this between Europe and India. Pompeii Lakshmi (1CE): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii_Lakshmi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii_Lakshmi 1st century Roman coins found in Southern India: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations Really, all these guys had to do was get to the vicinity of Rome or Constantinople, and catch a connection, and they were there.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
heraclius 7y ago
Green notes that England is rather remote. This may be one reason for the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons. > “The utter remoteness of the islands at the north-westerly limits of the Ocean and the barbarian nature of their inhabitants was a commonplace or topos in the work of Roman poets and historians. ….Christian commentators living in the Empire, however, adapted this secular image of the centrality of Rome in the light of a very different biblical tradition that Jerusalem was the centre of the earth. Old Testament prophecies had announced that the glory the God of Israel would one day be revealed to all peoples, even to idolatrous gentiles throughout the ‘multitude of isles’…”¹ But the theme was not exclusively eschatologic. “Bede made sophisticated use of the Roman, biblical, and patristic strands of the topos in his account of the various conversions and reconversions of peoples and regions within ‘the multitude of isles’.” Awareness of the remoteness of Britain was likely therefore closely related to British Christian identity. Interestingly, however, the scholarly basis of that identity was increasingly undermined. Of Charlemagne’s time, Pirenne wrote > Among these purely Germanic Anglo-Saxons the Latin culture was introduced suddenly, together with the Latin religion, and it profited by the enthusiasm felt for the latter. No sooner were they converted, under the influence and guidance of Rome, than the Anglo-Saxons turned their gaze toward the Sacred City. They visited it continually, bringing back relics and manuscripts. They submitted themselves to its suggestive influence, and learned its language, which for them was no vulgar tongue, but a sacred language, invested with an incomparable prestige. As early as the 7th century there were men among the Anglo-Saxons, like the Venerable Bede and the poet Aldhelm, whose learning was truly astonishing as measured by the standards of Western Europe. > The intellectual reawakening which took place under Charlemagne must be attributed to the Anglo-Saxon missionaries.³ And Alcuin, an Anglo-Saxon, was of course in charge of the Palace School. Pirenne continues: > It was the North that now proceeded to diffuse the culture which it had received from the Mediterranean. …In this way the Anglo-Saxons became simultaneously the reformers of the language and also the reformers of the church.⁴ By Alfred’s time, however, the English were in dire need of scholarship from the continent. I haven’t a copy of English Historical Documents on me, but Fulk, to whom Alfred wrote in supplication that scholars from Rheims might be sent to revive learning in England, replied most condescendingly (whilst granting his request): he informed Alfred, as if he were some ignoramus, of the existence of church councils (as if any Christian at the time would have been unaware of their existence), rambled on about his part in the apostolic succession (as if England was not also home to bishops validly part of the episcopal succession too), and emphasised the propriety of customs in his part of the world. Alfred could do nothing but accept the onerous conditions imposed upon him near the end of the letter, such was the state of degeneration of the church. 1. Jennifer O’Reilly, “The art of authority”, in After Rome, Thomas Charles-Edwards ed., p. 141 2. Ibid, p. 142 3. Henri Pirenne, “From Mohammed and Charlemagne”, in The Pirenne Thesis: Analysis Criticism And Revision, A.F. Havighurst ed., Boston 1958, 109pp., p. 38 4. Ibid, p. 39

103 points by agronaut 7y ago

This is interesting, but I don't believe it's all that surprising. Medieval Europe was very well connected. Alfred himself went to Rome when he was a child and had an extensive cultural exchange with mainland Europe. It is also well known, as the article points out, that interactions with Asia was much more widespread than what is perhaps understood by most people today (who still sees it as a dark age). This can also be seen by the fact that Christian communities existed, not only in India, but also in China as early as the 7th Century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Earliest_documented_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Earliest...

paganel 7y ago
> Alfred himself went to Rome when he was a child and had an extensive cultural exchange with mainland Europe. There’s also a depiction of King Arthur (Rex Arturus) in a famous mosaic located inside the Otranto cathedral, located in Puglia, Italy [1]. Presumably the mosaic was put in place in the 1160s, give or take a few decades. A bit OT but not by that much, the same Italian city of Otranto was under direct Ottoman control for a year, sometimes in the early 1470s. Most of its Christian residents who had dare resisting were killed, and presumably the final step of the Ottomans’ journey was Rome (I have a quote about this made by Mehmed II somewhere in my books, I’m too lazy to search for it on my phone). Fortunately for Western Christianity Mehmed got caught up in some fierce fights in present day Albania and also in a region of present day Romania (Moldova, to be more exact) so that he had to recall his troups from the Italian peninsula. Which is to say that yes, the East and West have been a lot more involved with each other compared to what most of today’s people assume. [1] http://sites.duke.edu/danteslibrary/files/2016/02/otranto-mosaic-4-king-arthur-1024x796.jpg http://sites.duke.edu/danteslibrary/files/2016/02/otranto-mo...
heraclius 7y ago
Indeed, relatedly, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that in 853 Alfred was consecrated king by the Pope; I believe that it is theorised, quite plausibly, that this was an important influence in later life.

Cherian 7y ago

I come from Kerala, the southernmost state in India referenced in the article. My last name is Thomas and every now and then people in the US look at me bewildered when I tell them my name – “But you don’t look Spanish”. I take it as an opportunity to give them a bit of a history lesson – “Do you know Christianity came to India 14 centuries before the US? And Columbus was looking for these Indians selling black pepper?” Surprises people so much to know that Christianity exists in India, let alone that St. Thomas died in India [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle

simonh 7y ago
A lot of people think Marco Polo was the first European to travel to the far east, but in fact his father and Uncle at least had already been there and he travelled back with them. This sort of travel along the silk routes had probably been going on since Roman times at least, and if so why not the spice routes to India and beyond as well?.
neximo64 7y ago
Similarly one wonders how chilli peppers are so prolific in Asian cuisine, but were only introduced during the columbian exchange.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Like potatoes in the British Isles. Do you mean how (the method by which it was achieved)? Perhaps you really wanted to know why? You might also compare coffee, and tea, there. I imagine it's about fashion really, the new product usurps the old, it garners higher prices initially, then there's a glut, unless there's a reason to go back the product becomes entrenched.
  - danmaz74 7y ago
    As far as I know, producing chilli is much easier than producing pepper.
- 7y ago

thrwoqewe1231 7y ago

Seems like more bullshit propaganda to 'harvest' the remaining of the 'pagans'. http://indiafacts.org/the-myth-of-st-thomas-part-one/ http://indiafacts.org/the-myth-of-st-thomas-part-one/ See, Joshua project, and USAID, and the dying Christian churches in the West are being used together with statecraft to make India a bigger prostitute than she already is at the point (what with linguistic and cultural destruction over the past centuries).

benj111 7y ago

So I take it that island at the far east of the map is Japan? Its interesting how they thought the Nile came from Asia. And what's with Scandinavia missing?

valarauko 7y ago
The large labelled island at the very top is Taprobane, the name by which the ancient Greeks knew Sri Lanka. It was believed to be as large as Great Britain. The text reads: "Tabrobanen habet x ciuitates, bis in anno merita [corruption of metit?] fruges", which translates as "Taprobane has ten cities, [and] twice a year reaps crops/fruits."

jillesvangurp 7y ago

The Last Kingdom on Netflix is a pretty decent series about this time. Sort of a non fantasy version of Game of Thrones. I think there are probably a fair bit of historical inaccuracies in there but nevertheless a fascinating time and decent series. I ended up reading up on wikipedia about several of the characters (at least the non fictional ones).

sbmthakur 7y ago
Thanks for mentioning. I was looking for such a series. As per Wikipedia, it's historical fiction. So, wouldn't it be somewhat different than real history?
- benplumley 7y ago
  If the show is true to the books, it's fiction in the sense that individual characters and minor events are made up, but the historical setting and major events are close to accurate. After all, you can't realistically make it completely historically accurate down to the names of minor characters, simply because they weren't documented (or the documents didn't survive).
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  It's a romanticized version of several events that actually took place featuring e.g. King Alfred and other historical characters. While there are some written records from that era, there's not much to go on. It was called the dark middle ages for a reason. So, the script writers probably took quite a bit of liberties as did the author of the books this series is based on: http://www.bernardcornwell.net/series/the-last-kingdom-series/ http://www.bernardcornwell.net/series/the-last-kingdom-serie.... I haven't actually read the books; so I can't vouch for those. But if you are interested, I can recommend Hild by Nicola Grifith which is a good read about roughly the same era.

danans 7y ago

There were networks of trade far older than even this between Europe and India. Pompeii Lakshmi (1CE): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii_Lakshmi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii_Lakshmi 1st century Roman coins found in Southern India: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations Really, all these guys had to do was get to the vicinity of Rome or Constantinople, and catch a connection, and they were there.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

heraclius 7y ago

Green notes that England is rather remote. This may be one reason for the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons. > “The utter remoteness of the islands at the north-westerly limits of the Ocean and the barbarian nature of their inhabitants was a commonplace or topos in the work of Roman poets and historians. ….Christian commentators living in the Empire, however, adapted this secular image of the centrality of Rome in the light of a very different biblical tradition that Jerusalem was the centre of the earth. Old Testament prophecies had announced that the glory the God of Israel would one day be revealed to all peoples, even to idolatrous gentiles throughout the ‘multitude of isles’…”¹ But the theme was not exclusively eschatologic. “Bede made sophisticated use of the Roman, biblical, and patristic strands of the topos in his account of the various conversions and reconversions of peoples and regions within ‘the multitude of isles’.” Awareness of the remoteness of Britain was likely therefore closely related to British Christian identity. Interestingly, however, the scholarly basis of that identity was increasingly undermined. Of Charlemagne’s time, Pirenne wrote > Among these purely Germanic Anglo-Saxons the Latin culture was introduced suddenly, together with the Latin religion, and it profited by the enthusiasm felt for the latter. No sooner were they converted, under the influence and guidance of Rome, than the Anglo-Saxons turned their gaze toward the Sacred City. They visited it continually, bringing back relics and manuscripts. They submitted themselves to its suggestive influence, and learned its language, which for them was no vulgar tongue, but a sacred language, invested with an incomparable prestige. As early as the 7th century there were men among the Anglo-Saxons, like the Venerable Bede and the poet Aldhelm, whose learning was truly astonishing as measured by the standards of Western Europe. > The intellectual reawakening which took place under Charlemagne must be attributed to the Anglo-Saxon missionaries.³ And Alcuin, an Anglo-Saxon, was of course in charge of the Palace School. Pirenne continues: > It was the North that now proceeded to diffuse the culture which it had received from the Mediterranean. …In this way the Anglo-Saxons became simultaneously the reformers of the language and also the reformers of the church.⁴ By Alfred’s time, however, the English were in dire need of scholarship from the continent. I haven’t a copy of English Historical Documents on me, but Fulk, to whom Alfred wrote in supplication that scholars from Rheims might be sent to revive learning in England, replied most condescendingly (whilst granting his request): he informed Alfred, as if he were some ignoramus, of the existence of church councils (as if any Christian at the time would have been unaware of their existence), rambled on about his part in the apostolic succession (as if England was not also home to bishops validly part of the episcopal succession too), and emphasised the propriety of customs in his part of the world. Alfred could do nothing but accept the onerous conditions imposed upon him near the end of the letter, such was the state of degeneration of the church. 1. Jennifer O’Reilly, “The art of authority”, in After Rome, Thomas Charles-Edwards ed., p. 141 2. Ibid, p. 142 3. Henri Pirenne, “From Mohammed and Charlemagne”, in The Pirenne Thesis: Analysis Criticism And Revision, A.F. Havighurst ed., Boston 1958, 109pp., p. 38 4. Ibid, p. 39