4 ms·

Is there a practical example of a housing not being a commodity that results in favorable housing conditions?

by max76 7y ago

drb91 7y ago
I do not, but I know for sure commodifying housing doesn’t create favorable housing conditions.
- closeparen 7y ago
  So if we look at places in the US with more favorable housing conditions, we should find housing allocation done primarily by the state?
  - drb91 7y ago
    Where do you claim there are favorable conditions? As far as I am aware the homeless are everywhere; some places are simply impossible to live without shelter due to exposure.
    - closeparen 7y ago
      Housing affordability and degree of government involvement are both on a spectrum; you don't need extremes to see if there is a relationship or which way it runs.
      - drb91 7y ago
        Affordable housing is code for unaffordable housing. Otherwise it'd just be housing. You're very correct it's on a spectrum—we're between being entirely homeless and entirely housed. Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable. Housing should be free to use (obviously not free to build and maintain). Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords.
        closeparen 7y ago
        >Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable Which makes it all the more important that you correctly identify and apply the mechanisms that push a place towards one end or the other. >Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords. 64% of housing units are owner-occupied [0]. These households are not landlords, yet they are incentivized to raise property values. [0] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605217 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605217
        drb91 7y ago
        Right, so the market is what makes housing unaffordable. Making housing a guaranteed human right will make it entirely affordable—at least on the end of using it. Housing is entirely a cost that should be amortized over those able to afford and/or build it.
tehjoker 7y ago
In socialist countries. In the Soviet Union, rent was 2% of take home pay. Many of these countries started out poor, so the housing quality may have been commeasurate with the development of the country. In the US, as a material issue, we could easily provide decent affordable housing to everyone by destroying the market and having the public march in and build. One system that is being tried in some region in China is you buy your house from the government and sell it back. This keeps things democratic and market free. Landlords should be cast into the dustbin of history.
- drb91 7y ago
  We have, I believe, about 3x the empty units as we have homeless people in this country. Sure there are distribution issues, but it’s a matter of political will.
  - Camillo 7y ago
    Political will to redistribute the people? You must know that that's how it worked/works in socialist countries. You still need a permit in China to move to another city, AFAIK.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      People will move if you offer them somewhere to live. What's needed is political will to use the housing and make the offer.
k3nt0456 7y ago
Singapore is the closest success story I can think of. Requirements: - be a citizen - get married The government will then build a flat for you and hand you the keys 5 years later for about a fourth of the private market price. Of course you need an economy that can pay for all this, so it won't be universally applicable
- closeparen 7y ago
  What do you do while unmarried or in the first 5 years?
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    You continue living with your family.
    - closeparen 7y ago
      You conduct your relationships and the first few years of your marriage within earshot of your parents?
      - apexalpha 7y ago
        The alternative is a market based housing market such as another city state has: Hong Kong. I think everyone in Hong Kong would happily live with their parents for 5 years if it means they can buy their own flat afterwards.
      - drb91 7y ago
        This seems cultural, and before the invention of privacy this was the norm. EDIT: I thought that was a meme and it's not—i'm referring to the growth of the middle class and multi-room houses.
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        That's how the rest of the world does it, so, yes? Also note that pre-marital relationships are often not very common.

Is there a practical example of a housing not being a commodity that results in favorable housing conditions?

by max76 7y ago

Is there a practical example of a housing not being a commodity that results in favorable housing conditions?

drb91 7y ago

I do not, but I know for sure commodifying housing doesn’t create favorable housing conditions.

closeparen 7y ago
So if we look at places in the US with more favorable housing conditions, we should find housing allocation done primarily by the state?
- drb91 7y ago
  Where do you claim there are favorable conditions? As far as I am aware the homeless are everywhere; some places are simply impossible to live without shelter due to exposure.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Housing affordability and degree of government involvement are both on a spectrum; you don't need extremes to see if there is a relationship or which way it runs.
    - drb91 7y ago
      Affordable housing is code for unaffordable housing. Otherwise it'd just be housing. You're very correct it's on a spectrum—we're between being entirely homeless and entirely housed. Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable. Housing should be free to use (obviously not free to build and maintain). Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords.
      - closeparen 7y ago
        >Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable Which makes it all the more important that you correctly identify and apply the mechanisms that push a place towards one end or the other. >Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords. 64% of housing units are owner-occupied [0]. These households are not landlords, yet they are incentivized to raise property values. [0] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605217 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605217
        drb91 7y ago
        Right, so the market is what makes housing unaffordable. Making housing a guaranteed human right will make it entirely affordable—at least on the end of using it. Housing is entirely a cost that should be amortized over those able to afford and/or build it.

tehjoker 7y ago

In socialist countries. In the Soviet Union, rent was 2% of take home pay. Many of these countries started out poor, so the housing quality may have been commeasurate with the development of the country. In the US, as a material issue, we could easily provide decent affordable housing to everyone by destroying the market and having the public march in and build. One system that is being tried in some region in China is you buy your house from the government and sell it back. This keeps things democratic and market free. Landlords should be cast into the dustbin of history.

drb91 7y ago
We have, I believe, about 3x the empty units as we have homeless people in this country. Sure there are distribution issues, but it’s a matter of political will.
- Camillo 7y ago
  Political will to redistribute the people? You must know that that's how it worked/works in socialist countries. You still need a permit in China to move to another city, AFAIK.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    People will move if you offer them somewhere to live. What's needed is political will to use the housing and make the offer.

k3nt0456 7y ago

Singapore is the closest success story I can think of. Requirements: - be a citizen - get married The government will then build a flat for you and hand you the keys 5 years later for about a fourth of the private market price. Of course you need an economy that can pay for all this, so it won't be universally applicable

closeparen 7y ago
What do you do while unmarried or in the first 5 years?
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  You continue living with your family.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    You conduct your relationships and the first few years of your marriage within earshot of your parents?
    - apexalpha 7y ago
      The alternative is a market based housing market such as another city state has: Hong Kong. I think everyone in Hong Kong would happily live with their parents for 5 years if it means they can buy their own flat afterwards.
    - drb91 7y ago
      This seems cultural, and before the invention of privacy this was the norm. EDIT: I thought that was a meme and it's not—i'm referring to the growth of the middle class and multi-room houses.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      That's how the rest of the world does it, so, yes? Also note that pre-marital relationships are often not very common.