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If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature a

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would have been reduced by whatever that fraction was. Edit: So it turns out the Model X does have automatic emergency breaking, but the preliminary report says that the Tesla actually increased its speed in the 3 seconds leading up to the crash. Sounds like a major software bug to me. Here's a review of the Model S AES compared to other cars, in particular the Tesla AES trigger can't handle when a lead car moves out of way, which is what the NTSB report says happened: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu... Here's the NTSB preliminary report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HWY18FH011-preliminary.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...

LeoPanthera 8y ago
> If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. My car (a Nissan) has this feature, and it comes with a warning that it works best with obstacles that are moving. (ie. other cars) Although it does work with stationary objects, it warns that if you're moving over ~35mph, it may not detect stationary obstacles, as it has trouble differentiating between them and objects on the side of the road.
merkaloid 8y ago
they do have that, but as you might imagine, the emergency brakes are only there to mitigate damage in case of a crash, not to prevent them
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  Yes but in this case it didn't trigger.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    These AEB features almost universally do not trigger on stationary objects when the car is moving more than 20 or 30mph.
    - LoSboccacc 8y ago
      https://youtu.be/kuxundRB1zM https://youtu.be/kuxundRB1zM good aeb trigger at speed. they might not avoid the crash entirely, but try to mitigate it. Tesla is quite behind the state of the art here.
      - zaroth 8y ago
        Teslas and other manufacturers will trigger at speed against a stationary vehicle detected by the adaptive cruise control system. Teslas are beginning to trigger more at speed on perceived non-vehicle obstacles (added in a recent OTA update) but that is not without false positives which some have deemed the Tesla Brake Check. I’ve experienced the errant braking, typically when a lane is partially obstructed but you are moving to avoid the obstruction, that is when it will trigger. I’m not a fan of this behavior. You can override it with a quick tap on the accelerator, but it jostles you.
      - apearson 8y ago
        Here is the Tesla's Model S video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5aFZJxuJGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5aFZJxuJGQ
        LoSboccacc 8y ago
        yeah I don't understand why there are so many posts in this thread that claim AEB can't do this kind of things with so much video evidence going around. but here's the point, vision system detects objects it knows how to detect, lidar systems detects obstacles; as such doesn't surprise me a bit tesla is trained to recognize car from that aspect only to plow into 90deg rotated trucks, as when for example they cross an intersection.
zaroth 8y ago
His car increased speed because the adaptive cruise was set to a higher speed than his car was going, and for 4 seconds before impact there were no cars in front of him. The adaptive cruise increased speed to his set point when his car left the flow of traffic. The AEB will not trigger on a stationary object at highway speeds. I do not believe there exists any AEB that will emergency brake at highway speed, maybe except perhaps for a pedestrian shaped object? He hit a crash attenuator which had not been reset (so basically direct impact with concrete) after it had been hit by another car 11 days prior. Resetting the attenuators is a simple task, but apparently this particular one is hit fairly frequently.
- rasz 8y ago
  >crash attenuator >this particular one is hit fairly frequently. Interesting way to build your road infrastructure
  - javagram 8y ago
    With the number of people who drive drunk or sleepy or while texting, crashes are inevitable. Unfortunately tesla autopilot drives like an impaired human.
  - praneshp 8y ago
    Not a big fan of bay area roads, but this particular junction sees crashes because of a high frequency of law breakers. There is only so much you can do against a large number of people that are super-happy to break the law because the fine/insurance rate is probably not a big deal.
  - MertsA 8y ago
    One way or another highways have portions where there has to be a solid, flat, vertical surface on the edges of barriers, exit ramps, etc. It's similar in many ways to the hairy ball theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem You can't just round over the edge of the barrier, because that still leaves a portion where a car could collide perpendicular to it. You can't just slope it down to the ground, unless you want an impromptu Dukes of Hazzard reenactment. You can't have just an unguarded edge because that would just be a death sentence if you hit it at any appreciable speed. The solution is to place those crash attenuators so that it slows the vehicle down over a small distance rather than just over the length of the crush portion of the car. https://megarentalsinc.com/sites/default/files/feature-images/crash_cushions2.jpg https://megarentalsinc.com/sites/default/files/feature-image...
cjhopman 8y ago
> it's a common luxury car feature Almost all luxury cars implement this feature the same way that Tesla does, with radar that ignores stationary objects. I'm not aware of another company that implements the steer towards obstacles part of the problem, though.
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  This is simply not correct. In fact, the link in the comment you just responded to contradicts you: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu... It's actually pretty frustrating to have written a little summary of what likely happened WITH SOURCES, that a lead car changed lanes and confused the AES system, only to have people ignore it. The only thing worse then a pedant is an incorrect pedant.
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    None of the tests in that reference were done at highway speeds. AIUI, handling stationary objects with radar is easier at slower speeds. Super interesting to see that Subaru is doing emergency breaking with cameras, though. Seems I'm a couple of years out of the loop.
- _Microft 8y ago
  Another interesting, and very unexpected, luxury feature is Pre-Safe Sound by Mercedes. In case of an imminent accident, a loud noise is played through the speakers of the car to cause a reaction in the ear which prepares and thereby protects it from the noise of an accident. It is a detail feature but an interesting one.
  - tim333 8y ago
    Gosh, that's one I wouldn't have thought of. As an occasional tinnitus sufferer it seems a good idea. I wonder which bit of the ear moves to protect it.
cptskippy 8y ago
AAA tests found 40% of AEB systems failed to stop a collision at 30mph and 60% at 45mph. Granted they're not causing them but those numbers still aren't great and get worse the faster you're traveling. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3111407/aaa-automatic-braking-system-performance-varies-widely.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3111407/aaa-automatic-...
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  At some speed stopping the collision becomes difficult/impossible. But in the meantime I'd vastly prefer colliding after significant breaking than not.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Absolutely, and most AEB systems can't or don't do that. Everyone wants a safe AEB that functions correctly in all situations but we're just not there yet. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-systems-sometimes-hit-parked-cars-and-lane-dividers/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-s... I think the real question is did Tesla mislead customers into believing their system was more capable than it actually was, thus resulting in them relying on a system when they shouldn't have?
  - bloak 8y ago
    And colliding after significant braking would be even better.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      Most AEBs do not brake at high speed because reacting to a false positive can actually cause accidents. This makes sense as the time needed to respond to a situation demands detecting objects at greater range which requires more than just higher resolution sensors because as you get further ahead of the vehicle you have to contextualize what you're seeing. Tesla's system is attempting to do that contextualization where as most other manufacturers systems are simple feedback loops.
beering 8y ago
No auto-cruise-control system will suddenly brake if it comes across a stationary object at highway speeds. The danger that a false positive ends up causing a pile-up on the freeway is too dangerous.
- endianswap 8y ago
  What? I have three cars with AEB/adaptive cruise control and I've experienced two of them doing exactly what you describe and saved me a bunch of damage.
  - tim333 8y ago
    Here's a TV show trying them at 55mph and 60mph, though with a slow moving object. The Volvo still works quite well at 60. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo&feature=youtu.be&t=359 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo&feature=youtu.be...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
delfinom 8y ago
>If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. It's required by law for all new cars from 2020 I believe

LeoPanthera 8y ago

> If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. My car (a Nissan) has this feature, and it comes with a warning that it works best with obstacles that are moving. (ie. other cars) Although it does work with stationary objects, it warns that if you're moving over ~35mph, it may not detect stationary obstacles, as it has trouble differentiating between them and objects on the side of the road.

merkaloid 8y ago

they do have that, but as you might imagine, the emergency brakes are only there to mitigate damage in case of a crash, not to prevent them

CoolGuySteve 8y ago
Yes but in this case it didn't trigger.
- zaroth 8y ago
  These AEB features almost universally do not trigger on stationary objects when the car is moving more than 20 or 30mph.
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    https://youtu.be/kuxundRB1zM https://youtu.be/kuxundRB1zM good aeb trigger at speed. they might not avoid the crash entirely, but try to mitigate it. Tesla is quite behind the state of the art here.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      Teslas and other manufacturers will trigger at speed against a stationary vehicle detected by the adaptive cruise control system. Teslas are beginning to trigger more at speed on perceived non-vehicle obstacles (added in a recent OTA update) but that is not without false positives which some have deemed the Tesla Brake Check. I’ve experienced the errant braking, typically when a lane is partially obstructed but you are moving to avoid the obstruction, that is when it will trigger. I’m not a fan of this behavior. You can override it with a quick tap on the accelerator, but it jostles you.
    - apearson 8y ago
      Here is the Tesla's Model S video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5aFZJxuJGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5aFZJxuJGQ
      - LoSboccacc 8y ago
        yeah I don't understand why there are so many posts in this thread that claim AEB can't do this kind of things with so much video evidence going around. but here's the point, vision system detects objects it knows how to detect, lidar systems detects obstacles; as such doesn't surprise me a bit tesla is trained to recognize car from that aspect only to plow into 90deg rotated trucks, as when for example they cross an intersection.

zaroth 8y ago

His car increased speed because the adaptive cruise was set to a higher speed than his car was going, and for 4 seconds before impact there were no cars in front of him. The adaptive cruise increased speed to his set point when his car left the flow of traffic. The AEB will not trigger on a stationary object at highway speeds. I do not believe there exists any AEB that will emergency brake at highway speed, maybe except perhaps for a pedestrian shaped object? He hit a crash attenuator which had not been reset (so basically direct impact with concrete) after it had been hit by another car 11 days prior. Resetting the attenuators is a simple task, but apparently this particular one is hit fairly frequently.

rasz 8y ago
>crash attenuator >this particular one is hit fairly frequently. Interesting way to build your road infrastructure
- javagram 8y ago
  With the number of people who drive drunk or sleepy or while texting, crashes are inevitable. Unfortunately tesla autopilot drives like an impaired human.
- praneshp 8y ago
  Not a big fan of bay area roads, but this particular junction sees crashes because of a high frequency of law breakers. There is only so much you can do against a large number of people that are super-happy to break the law because the fine/insurance rate is probably not a big deal.
- MertsA 8y ago
  One way or another highways have portions where there has to be a solid, flat, vertical surface on the edges of barriers, exit ramps, etc. It's similar in many ways to the hairy ball theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem You can't just round over the edge of the barrier, because that still leaves a portion where a car could collide perpendicular to it. You can't just slope it down to the ground, unless you want an impromptu Dukes of Hazzard reenactment. You can't have just an unguarded edge because that would just be a death sentence if you hit it at any appreciable speed. The solution is to place those crash attenuators so that it slows the vehicle down over a small distance rather than just over the length of the crush portion of the car. https://megarentalsinc.com/sites/default/files/feature-images/crash_cushions2.jpg https://megarentalsinc.com/sites/default/files/feature-image...

cjhopman 8y ago

> it's a common luxury car feature Almost all luxury cars implement this feature the same way that Tesla does, with radar that ignores stationary objects. I'm not aware of another company that implements the steer towards obstacles part of the problem, though.

CoolGuySteve 8y ago
This is simply not correct. In fact, the link in the comment you just responded to contradicts you: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu... It's actually pretty frustrating to have written a little summary of what likely happened WITH SOURCES, that a lead car changed lanes and confused the AES system, only to have people ignore it. The only thing worse then a pedant is an incorrect pedant.
- cjhopman 8y ago
  None of the tests in that reference were done at highway speeds. AIUI, handling stationary objects with radar is easier at slower speeds. Super interesting to see that Subaru is doing emergency breaking with cameras, though. Seems I'm a couple of years out of the loop.
_Microft 8y ago
Another interesting, and very unexpected, luxury feature is Pre-Safe Sound by Mercedes. In case of an imminent accident, a loud noise is played through the speakers of the car to cause a reaction in the ear which prepares and thereby protects it from the noise of an accident. It is a detail feature but an interesting one.
- tim333 8y ago
  Gosh, that's one I wouldn't have thought of. As an occasional tinnitus sufferer it seems a good idea. I wonder which bit of the ear moves to protect it.

cptskippy 8y ago

AAA tests found 40% of AEB systems failed to stop a collision at 30mph and 60% at 45mph. Granted they're not causing them but those numbers still aren't great and get worse the faster you're traveling. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3111407/aaa-automatic-braking-system-performance-varies-widely.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3111407/aaa-automatic-...

CoolGuySteve 8y ago
At some speed stopping the collision becomes difficult/impossible. But in the meantime I'd vastly prefer colliding after significant breaking than not.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  Absolutely, and most AEB systems can't or don't do that. Everyone wants a safe AEB that functions correctly in all situations but we're just not there yet. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-systems-sometimes-hit-parked-cars-and-lane-dividers/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-s... I think the real question is did Tesla mislead customers into believing their system was more capable than it actually was, thus resulting in them relying on a system when they shouldn't have?
- bloak 8y ago
  And colliding after significant braking would be even better.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Most AEBs do not brake at high speed because reacting to a false positive can actually cause accidents. This makes sense as the time needed to respond to a situation demands detecting objects at greater range which requires more than just higher resolution sensors because as you get further ahead of the vehicle you have to contextualize what you're seeing. Tesla's system is attempting to do that contextualization where as most other manufacturers systems are simple feedback loops.

beering 8y ago

No auto-cruise-control system will suddenly brake if it comes across a stationary object at highway speeds. The danger that a false positive ends up causing a pile-up on the freeway is too dangerous.

endianswap 8y ago
What? I have three cars with AEB/adaptive cruise control and I've experienced two of them doing exactly what you describe and saved me a bunch of damage.
- tim333 8y ago
  Here's a TV show trying them at 55mph and 60mph, though with a slow moving object. The Volvo still works quite well at 60. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo&feature=youtu.be&t=359 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo&feature=youtu.be...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

delfinom 8y ago

>If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. It's required by law for all new cars from 2020 I believe