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Google employees are staging a sit-in to protest reported retaliation
- jarym 8y agohow did the managers doing the alleged retaliating get hired at google in the first place? I thought the crazy I interview process existed to get the right people?
- natalyarostova 8y agoThe implicit unionization benefits of being too smart to readily fire. Interesting.
- pm90 8y agoThis is likely the only segment of the labor market outside of executives that are highly valued by Corporations. Naturally, they have to be coddled and not abused like most of the rest of the American workforce.
- tyingq 8y agoThere are other "not quickly replaceable" folks. Pilot and police unions, for example, still seem to have a fair amount of power.
- jkaplowitz 8y agoBut they're generally unionized. Google employees are not.
- tyingq 8y agoAh, okay. Nurses then. Though they haven't chosen to do much en masse yet.
- bobthepanda 8y agoNurses are unionized and politically active: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-pulse/2019/04/30/why-nurses-are-mobilizing-behind-medicare-for-all-601558 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-pulse/2019/04/... https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/apr/02/washington-nurses-hospitals-at-odds-over-bill-limi/ https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/apr/02/washington-nur... Pretty much the only high-paying job that isn't unionized are doctors, but they use the American Medical Association to limit supply.
- simple_phrases 8y agoI wouldn't be easily fooled. Companies try as hard as they can to turn engineering talent into a commodity, and they're relatively successful. The High-Tech Employee Antitrust suit is an example of this. If you need to work for a living, employers will commodify your role to the best of their abilities.
- pm90 8y agoSure, but those are the competing forces at work, right? Employees: get the most money for their labor. Employers: get the labor for the least possible money. It may not be ethical in your viewpoint, but those are the natural forces at play. It follows that employers will commodify my role as part of their strategy to pay me less. So I take other actions to make myself more valuable. As long as those actions are strictly technical (learning new technology, rather than management), I am quite happy to play this natural game driven entirely by reason.
- simple_phrases 8y agoCompanies are vehicles for accumulated wealth and power for the ownership class. Labor, on the other hand, has very few vehicles to accumulate their wealth and power. In fact one such vehicle, the union, is often legally neutered such that private contracts made between unions and employers can be nullified in favor of the ownership class (see: right-to-work laws and union security agreements). There's an inherent asymmetry of power between labor and the ownership class enshrined in both law and contemporary markets. We live in a nation started by the wealthy merchant class, for the wealthy merchant class, and it shows in our labor history. So, yes, there are competing forces that are very unequal. You as an individual engineer will have little clout against, say, an industry-wide anti-poaching agreement like we saw in the High-Tech Employee Antitrust case.
- sjg007 8y agoGoogle employees should unionize. They should set the example.
- Frost1x 8y agoThey could just quit then organize together and form a competing company with stronger ethics. Would be good to see this happen to a lot of near monopolies.
- tyingq 8y agoThe original walk out had an estimated count of 20,000. Any estimated counts for the sit-in yet? Or just anecdotal...is it a lot of employees?
- cwperkins 8y agoGoogle employees protesting the makeup of the AI Ethics council appeared like the closest thing to fascism in the USA that I have ever witnessed. I hope some people see the need for diversity of viewpoint and start to be more accepting of their fellow countrymen, while agreeing on what to condemn.
- jimmaswell 8y agoCan you elaborate on this?
- cwperkins 8y agoHere's a WaPo article from the controversial woman Google appointed to the board, Kay Cole James. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-wanted-to-help-google-make-ai-more-responsible-instead-i-was-treated-with-hostility/2019/04/09/cafd1fb6-5b07-11e9-842d-7d3ed7eb3957_story.html?utm_term=.b963eb052482 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-wanted-to-help-goo... I may not agree with her politically, but its important to have different viewpoints in discourse as long as they're rooted in principles. I think its shameful that the AI Ethics Council was disbanded, if employees took issue with her it would have been nice to see them suggest an alternative.
- hunter23 8y agoNothing about this has anything to do with the word fascist.
- UncleMeat 8y agoWhat principles form the basis of her transphobia?
- drb91 8y agoHaving bigoted values and using them for social control is a familiar scene in America for its entire history. The natural progression of pro-business is to use regulatory capture to create an artificial monopoly—competition brings down profits. All we really need to add to this is a one party system to form a true fascist state: something republicans could conceivably achieve given their control of the senate. The democratic party, on the other hand, is showing a clear schism between pro-corporate and an pro-labor wings. It is trivial to imagine a split into two parties. The republicans have no future without the social control our president demonstrated in his run and term. If anything, putting a bigoted republican on the AI ethics committee is leaning into a future where Alphabet would benefit from a fascist state.
- williesleg 8y agoOf course. Remember the manifesto a year or so ago? They're evil.
- bradleyjg 8y agoI don’t understand how a company where 5% of the workforce is responsible for the product that drives 95% of the revenue is so seemingly vulnerable to employee pressure. I can’t imagine Bell Lab employees had all that much leverage against Ma Bell.
- spyspy 8y agoI’ve often wondered this myself. Google has literally thousands of engineers working on search alone. I can’t even fathom what they’re all doing. And then what is everyone filling their time with?
- ak39 8y agoDeveloping Thanos snap gimmicks and other region specific Easter eggs?
- lbotos 8y agoAs much as we joke about this, a google doodle is such a great sticky "come back and see what's new tomorrow, and while you are here, maybe search which will make us money" tactic.
- throwaway55554 8y agoRewriting code. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13619378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13619378 > Most software at Google gets rewritten every few years.
- skybrian 8y agoGoogle builds a lot more of its own infrastructure than other companies can afford to do, all the way down to the hardware. They also change things more often internally than you will see with public-facing API's. What I'm wondering, though, is about why headcount continues to expand. Besides the new buildings in Mountain View and NYC there's a whole new campus planned in San Jose, so there are apparently no plans to slow down. Where does it end? https://medium.com/gabor/timeline-employee-count-growth-for-microsoft-yahoo-google-and-facebook-9ede22a37824 https://medium.com/gabor/timeline-employee-count-growth-for-...
- unionslol 8y agoIt's almost as if... bear with me here... Some sort of collective action by employees of a monopolistic company can't be ignored... because - uh - they'll stop working en masse? Voluntarily in lieu of pay? Madness, it'll never catch on.
- zelon88 8y ago2014 Demoulas Market Basket Protests [1]. 15,000 un-unionized employees in New England walked off their family-owned supermarket jobs after a board-flip and resulting capitulation of existing (family owned) leadership. Customers joined forces with the employees en-masse. The company is an icon and in many ways a prime mover in the area due to their intense real-estate investment strategy. This multi-billion dollar business was brought to its knees in mere months. Shelves were empty, customers were taping competitor receipts onto the doors, it was doomsday. MA and NH attorneys general got involved after the new corporate CEO's threatened to fire 15,000 people. It was chaos. And it worked. The board sold the company to the CEO they fired for $1.5b and everything was back to normal within a day or two. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_Basket_(New_England) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_Basket_(New_England)
- drb91 8y agoJust this past month Stop & Shop workers struck and the company lost a lot of money before negotiating an end favorable to workers. This is effective. Upper class professionals are less likely to strike even though proportionally they are giving away far more of their surplus labor.
- zelon88 8y agoI think a part of it too is how well the company is regarded by the employees. Market Basket is a really good company to work for. They pay well and offer decent benefits, and they have profit sharing and immense bonuses. I worked there, once in high school and again afterwards for a while. My ex was management and brought home $8,000 worth of bonuses one year at Christmas. And that was on-top of profit sharing, which they permit hardship withdrawals from. Google pays well and is highly regarded in the industry. Those jobs are worth fighting for.
- nonbel 8y agoSorry, this doesn't even look real: https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/GettyImages-1056110028.jpg https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/GettyImage... Not a single visible sign explains what they are protesting...
- wonnage 8y agoYou carefully examined the picture and didn't notice the dates on the sign are from the walkout last November?
- nonbel 8y agoNot sure what relevance that has. All the vague signs make it look like something out of a parody skit or cartoon.
- wonnage 8y agoNot sure if you're being willfully ignorant, but it's from this event: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/technology/google-walkout-sexual-harassment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/01/technology/google-walkout... Seems like they did a reasonably effective job of conveying their protest message across to the NYT, vague signs or not.
- nonbel 8y agoYour link says the "protests" were triggered by the NYT. It is not surprising they would cover the continuation of their own story: > "The backlash was prompted by an article in The New York Times last week" And I don't see a single sign in that story (actually I glimpsed one blurry one in the video), which is for the best because those signs make it difficult to take them seriously.
- wonnage 8y agoWell, they got their message across in a widely-published news article and you got your comment buried at the bottom on Hacker News
- googthrow2019 8y agoSomeone posted preliminary sit-in attendance numbers. Attendance ranges from 50-150 per office in the larger offices. Anecdotally, I've seen very little discussion and energy this time compared to the walkout. Back then, one couldn't walk 20 feet without hitting some kind of exhortation to join the walkout. This time, more people might find out about this sit-in through this HN story than through internal channels. The low visibility and low attendance aren't the result of any kind of management repression. I think it's a real change in sentiment. Most people don't care about this affair. Among people who are paying attention, there's a fair amount of internal skepticism and outrage fatigue. The small core group of habitual protesters is as active as ever, but they've struggled to come up with concrete evidence that substantiates their "systemic retaliation" narrative, and it feels like they've lost the hearts and minds of the public. It's telling that the main mailing list that these people use to communicate has enacted strict moderation policies that effectively ban debate and disagreement. Posting through Tor for obvious reasons.
- InTheArena 8y agoI've enough friends working at Google to know that they have a pretty strong mandated daily dose of kool-aid, where you are elite and only valuable if you work at google and adopt the one true Googler world view. Certain factions at Google demanded and ensured that anyone not in conformance at Google no longer work there. Then they are shocked and surprised when the same executives use the same mechanisms to hurt them, for the exact same reason - business reasons. Google abandoned "Don't be evil" a long time ago. It's time for people to realize that making corporations all-powerful is a really bad thing, even when they seem to be doing your bidding.... for now.
- notyourday 8y agoI managed to interact with lots of people who work for Google daily. The culture "The Circle" illustrated is spot on but I guess making 4x or 5x federal median wage would do it.
- cjhopman 8y ago4-5x federal median wage is new grad level at Google.
- thucydidesofusa 8y ago*new grad level software engineer, new grads in any operational role are earning half as much as an SWE in total compensation.
- wyck 8y agoThey might as well protest human nature while they are at it.
- drunkonpappy 8y agoI wish there was more negative backlash when Google retaliated against James Damore The privilege to speak up against the status quo is important. Especially when you have less power, and even if your opinion is unsavory to some
- DannyBee 8y agoEven the NLRB (pretty much the most employee-friendly place you can find, if you look through rulings) found they didn't.
- stcredzero 8y agoThe ruling basically ratifies fake ideological "blank slate" pseudo-science as actual science. It's findings with regards to James Damore's employment status may still be valid, but that particular part is wrong and pernicious.
- drunkonpappy 8y agoThe rulings stated it was legal for Google to do what they did. And I totally agree that it was legal - my gripe is with the difference in how society at large reacted to it. I've quoted a few relevant sections from the rulings In the summary: "we conclude that the memorandum included both protected and unprotected statements and that the Employer discharged [Damore] solely for [Damore's] unprotected statements. Therefore, the employer did not violate Section 8(a)(1) of the Act" In the Action: "The Board has acknowledged that it has a duty to balance an employee’s statutorily-protected rights against an employer’s legitimate right to enforce its workplace rules and managerial prerogatives" "In furtherance of these legitimate interests, employers must be permitted to “nip in the bud” the kinds of employee conduct that could lead to a “hostile workplace,” rather than waiting until an actionable hostile workplace has been created before taking action." An earlier decision they quoted in the ruling: "In view of the controversial nature of the language used and its admitted susceptibility to derisive and profane construction, [the employer] could legitimately ban the use of the provocative [language] as a reasonable precaution against discord and bitterness between employees and management, as well as to assure decorum and discipline in the plant" To me this sounds like they are saying that Google indeed retaliated, and it was legal for them to do so
- sureaboutthis 8y agoA big company is difficult to manage. Why aren't these employees being more effective by targeting the abusers instead?
- novok 8y agoHow does a sit in work?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- throwaway050119 8y agoDoes anyone at google actually work? This is what happens when you pay people a ton of money to do intellectual work. Basic needs are met and they start getting uppety... /s Honestly though, seems there are so many demonstrations at Google. More than say Facebook which is getting way more of a media thrashing for actual lapses. Whatever actual grievances there are, they’re buried amongst the chaff.
- analognoise 8y agoAren't people worried that they'll all be fired for protesting? People are within their rights to protest in public places, of course, but not on private property and certainly not on the clock. I'm not sure how it works from the business's perspective, but couldn't Google just get rid of all those people at once? Is that legal to do? From Google's perspective, if they just fired all these people, there would be some blowback but there would be no future walkouts/protests/disruptions at work. There are plenty of smart people who would take those jobs at Google in a heartbeat. Can someone explain this to me? Like if I did this at any place I've ever worked, I'd be gone in an instant.
- 345218435 8y ago„sexual harassment!“ gets you a long way.
- v7p1Qbt1im 8y agoMany Google employees are basically the most sought after people in their respective fields. Google spends obscene amounts to recruit and then retain the best possible workforce. Many of these engineers could barly raise their hand and would get hundreds of offers from competitors. As such they have much more leverage and get paid a lot more than employees at even other tech companies outside FAANG. It is in Google‘s interest to generally retain a maximum possible number of employees. Because there‘s a limited supply and also because you don‘t want them working at your competitor. In the weirdest scenarios you might end up in some really kafkaesque situatuon where you earn like 300 to 500k a year for basically not doing that much. The main thing is that you stay put and don’t go work for someone else. Maybe you’ve seen HBO’s Silicon Valley. Kind of like Big Head on the roof.
- mesozoic 8y agoSounds like a normal day at work.
- nonbel 8y agoI had a post about how generic the signs were in that link and it got modded to oblivion and "flagged" so I guess no one had to be made uncomfortable by constructive criticism. What a great little microcosm of the larger issues with google.