6 ms·

> At the age of 45, almost no Tsimane had CAC in their arteries while 25% of Americans do. > By the time they reach age 75, two-thirds of Tsimane are CAC-free

> At the age of 45, almost no Tsimane had CAC in their arteries while 25% of Americans do. > By the time they reach age 75, two-thirds of Tsimane are CAC-free compared with the overwhelming majority of Americans (80%) having signs of CAC. The article doesn't mention obesity at all. 40% of Americans over 40 are obese[1]. Tsimane obesity rates of adults (>20 years) are 5.6% for women and 1.6% for men[2]. Journalists love writing about dietary composition as if increasing your fish (or whatever) consumption is a magic bullet, but merely changing composition without losing weight is only a moderate improvement (maybe 30% fewer heart attacks, based on that retracted NEJM dietary study[3]). [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392307/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392307/ [3]: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
It's almost as if human experiences don't fit into the carefully curated categories we have in modern society where individual aspects are considered in isolation and not handled in a holistic way. It's as if: the need for meaning, relationships, sleep, body, teeth, eating, professional development, daily routine, sitting, walking, how we walk, our individual body constructs, personality archetypes, mental health, etc... were more than the sum of their parts and being overly dissecting such things leads to a lessening, not increase in understanding of the whole. A great book on psychology like thinking fast and slow will do a great job at dissecting reality from that narrow point of view, just as other books will do the same in other fields. But I don't really know of any field that is respected that combines many elements to study how to maximize human potential/study the human experience as a whole. I offer no solutions, just an observation in terms of how we deal with the human experience in modernity.
- Swizec 7y ago
  This is because I can change a thing but I can't change my whole life. Well, I can, but that's hard and single things are easy.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    You are right, it is necessary to dissect. But I feel it's taken on a life of it's own. Just as work to live in some places has been distorted to live to work. We should create categories to understand, not understand to create categories. I've seen it everywhere. My doctor trying to shove pills down my throat when I had developed some bad habits and he didn't ask me ONE question about diet or night routine. I've seen it in universities where professors attack each others field instead of finding the common thread. In the boss that says "that's not your job, thats marketing/QA/dev/business dev/growth team/etc". It's a lack of understand that a team should provide value to the overall and the categories should only be there to aid in overall progress.
  - yeahitslikethat 7y ago
    That's why you change one thing at a time.
- ssivark 7y ago
  > It's almost as if human experiences don't fit into the carefully curated categories we have in modern society where individual aspects are considered in isolation and not handled in a holistic way. Well put. The challenge for any individual author is that it is much easier to write defensively in a narrow niche (cue: increasing specialization in research). It is very easy to start flinging accusations and ad-hominem attacks on an author who's ambitiously trying to synthesize connections between apparently disparate topics, which discourages any ounce of originality/creativity. A more obvious problem is how our systems bias for an explosion of "content" and evisceration of nuance. For some thoughts on the topic, see https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/09/24/norbert-wiener-communication/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/09/24/norbert-wiener-comm... To start with, I wonder whether we can construct a better reading list for an audience with a more holistic bent, not just in relation to health, but for other domains too. Once a curated audience is established, authors might find more inducement to write such stuff. That said, once these floodgates are opened, filtering out the bullshit-mongers will take significant effort and judicious exercise of editorial discretion. In case anyone is interested, some ad-hoc examples, based on what I've been reading lately: - Christopher Alexander (full series of ten books, ostensibly relating to architecture, but actually reflecting on so much more) - Writings by some cybernetics pioneers (eg: Norbert Weiner and Ross Ashby) - Design as participation, by Kevin Slavin -- https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/design-as-participation https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/design-as-participation PS: Some of my current readings skirt "unfashionable" topics related to AI/ML, many of which are papers from the 80s :-)
Edmond 7y ago
30% improvement in anything is likely to be considered significant, not "moderate".
ericmcer 7y ago
Yeah very strange they do a breakdown of what percentages each diet has, but not the overall caloric intake. If you consume 5000 calories a day, it really does not matter how healthy your macros are. I wonder what the results would show if they did a similar study but compared people of similar body compositions. Who has the healthiest population of people with a BMI of ~20.
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  After a quick Google I found several older articles that do mention the caloric intake of the Tsimané [1]. It is curious that the BBC article left that out. 1: https://www.inverse.com/article/50572-tsimane-amazon-healthy-heart-high-calorie-diet https://www.inverse.com/article/50572-tsimane-amazon-healthy...
  - sm4rk0 7y ago
    "they consume between 2,433 to 2,738 calories per day"
- NikolaeVarius 7y ago
  Upper level athletes eat 5000 calories a day just fine, though they tend to have better macros
  - airstrike 7y ago
    They tend to also burn a huge amount of calories relative to the regular person
m12k 7y ago
Yeah, comparing with Americans seems designed to overstate the effect. If you instead compared with e.g. some European country where the obesity rate is much lower, it would yield a better idea how the two diets compare if the caloric intake was about the same in both cases.
- graeme 7y ago
  About 25% of France is obese. Europe is less obese than America but they're markedly more obese than they were a generation ago. Worlds off from hunter gatherer levels.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 7y ago
Yes, I would be interested in how I, an in-shape individual who exercises regularly compares to the Tsimane.
- copperx 7y ago
  I was also surprised that the OP scoffed at the 30%. If you sold a drug that did that you would be an instant billionaire.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
The fact that they walk a huge amount (16,000/17,000 steps per day) seems to be a very obvious factor. Unfortunately, getting this kind of behavior, at least in the US, would be enormously challenging, because our land use policies and regulations are generally designed to make walking useless and/or painful. I've lived in several parts of the US, currently live in Munich, only NYC felt close to Munich in walkability, and I honestly think I'd still give Munich the edge (even though it's not as dense and business convenience is worse). The other areas I lived in -- Silicon Valley, Seattle suburb, Utah, various parts of Alabama -- were all complete and utter garbage for walking. They're very obviously not even trying.
- nickjj 7y ago
  Are you unable to walk around your neighborhood in SV, Seattle and other places? I live on Long Island (not NYC) but it's not hard to find places to walk around in safety. I put in 3-5 miles (roughly 6,000 - 10,000 steps going by Google) a day just aimlessly walking side streets for general exercise and clearing my mind. When I visited SV it didn't seem too bad downtown. Can't speak for the other places though. But if you want to put in the steps, you just need ground to walk on and preferably not be constantly dealing with highways (that would really suck).
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    Basic google tells me that your upper range (5 miles) is still only around 10k steps. You’ll need to walk another 60-70% more to achieve what they do, which is where much of the effort can be in.
    - nickjj 7y ago
      I've been going 3-5 miles for over 5 years because it makes me feel good. I never heard of these people or their habits until yesterday. By the way, if you can walk 5 miles effortlessly, you can probably walk an entire day with little breaks. I've done some 15+ mile walking sessions in NYC. By the end of it, it's really not bad if it's a nice day out (it can get ridiculously hot and cold in NYC).
chrischen 7y ago
Well this article seems to be pushing for more carbohydrate consumption and putting that increased level of calories from carbs at the same significance as the massively increased level of physical activity they have.
YUMad 7y ago
Dietary composition _is_ the key. No hunter-gatherer group has ever exceeded 50% of total caloric intake coming from plants, especially not from simple sugars.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago

It's almost as if human experiences don't fit into the carefully curated categories we have in modern society where individual aspects are considered in isolation and not handled in a holistic way. It's as if: the need for meaning, relationships, sleep, body, teeth, eating, professional development, daily routine, sitting, walking, how we walk, our individual body constructs, personality archetypes, mental health, etc... were more than the sum of their parts and being overly dissecting such things leads to a lessening, not increase in understanding of the whole. A great book on psychology like thinking fast and slow will do a great job at dissecting reality from that narrow point of view, just as other books will do the same in other fields. But I don't really know of any field that is respected that combines many elements to study how to maximize human potential/study the human experience as a whole. I offer no solutions, just an observation in terms of how we deal with the human experience in modernity.

Swizec 7y ago
This is because I can change a thing but I can't change my whole life. Well, I can, but that's hard and single things are easy.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  You are right, it is necessary to dissect. But I feel it's taken on a life of it's own. Just as work to live in some places has been distorted to live to work. We should create categories to understand, not understand to create categories. I've seen it everywhere. My doctor trying to shove pills down my throat when I had developed some bad habits and he didn't ask me ONE question about diet or night routine. I've seen it in universities where professors attack each others field instead of finding the common thread. In the boss that says "that's not your job, thats marketing/QA/dev/business dev/growth team/etc". It's a lack of understand that a team should provide value to the overall and the categories should only be there to aid in overall progress.
- yeahitslikethat 7y ago
  That's why you change one thing at a time.
ssivark 7y ago
> It's almost as if human experiences don't fit into the carefully curated categories we have in modern society where individual aspects are considered in isolation and not handled in a holistic way. Well put. The challenge for any individual author is that it is much easier to write defensively in a narrow niche (cue: increasing specialization in research). It is very easy to start flinging accusations and ad-hominem attacks on an author who's ambitiously trying to synthesize connections between apparently disparate topics, which discourages any ounce of originality/creativity. A more obvious problem is how our systems bias for an explosion of "content" and evisceration of nuance. For some thoughts on the topic, see https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/09/24/norbert-wiener-communication/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/09/24/norbert-wiener-comm... To start with, I wonder whether we can construct a better reading list for an audience with a more holistic bent, not just in relation to health, but for other domains too. Once a curated audience is established, authors might find more inducement to write such stuff. That said, once these floodgates are opened, filtering out the bullshit-mongers will take significant effort and judicious exercise of editorial discretion. In case anyone is interested, some ad-hoc examples, based on what I've been reading lately: - Christopher Alexander (full series of ten books, ostensibly relating to architecture, but actually reflecting on so much more) - Writings by some cybernetics pioneers (eg: Norbert Weiner and Ross Ashby) - Design as participation, by Kevin Slavin -- https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/design-as-participation https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/design-as-participation PS: Some of my current readings skirt "unfashionable" topics related to AI/ML, many of which are papers from the 80s :-)

Edmond 7y ago

30% improvement in anything is likely to be considered significant, not "moderate".

ericmcer 7y ago

Yeah very strange they do a breakdown of what percentages each diet has, but not the overall caloric intake. If you consume 5000 calories a day, it really does not matter how healthy your macros are. I wonder what the results would show if they did a similar study but compared people of similar body compositions. Who has the healthiest population of people with a BMI of ~20.

txcwpalpha 7y ago
After a quick Google I found several older articles that do mention the caloric intake of the Tsimané [1]. It is curious that the BBC article left that out. 1: https://www.inverse.com/article/50572-tsimane-amazon-healthy-heart-high-calorie-diet https://www.inverse.com/article/50572-tsimane-amazon-healthy...
- sm4rk0 7y ago
  "they consume between 2,433 to 2,738 calories per day"
NikolaeVarius 7y ago
Upper level athletes eat 5000 calories a day just fine, though they tend to have better macros
- airstrike 7y ago
  They tend to also burn a huge amount of calories relative to the regular person

m12k 7y ago

Yeah, comparing with Americans seems designed to overstate the effect. If you instead compared with e.g. some European country where the obesity rate is much lower, it would yield a better idea how the two diets compare if the caloric intake was about the same in both cases.

graeme 7y ago
About 25% of France is obese. Europe is less obese than America but they're markedly more obese than they were a generation ago. Worlds off from hunter gatherer levels.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

oh_sigh 7y ago

Yes, I would be interested in how I, an in-shape individual who exercises regularly compares to the Tsimane.

copperx 7y ago
I was also surprised that the OP scoffed at the 30%. If you sold a drug that did that you would be an instant billionaire.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

The fact that they walk a huge amount (16,000/17,000 steps per day) seems to be a very obvious factor. Unfortunately, getting this kind of behavior, at least in the US, would be enormously challenging, because our land use policies and regulations are generally designed to make walking useless and/or painful. I've lived in several parts of the US, currently live in Munich, only NYC felt close to Munich in walkability, and I honestly think I'd still give Munich the edge (even though it's not as dense and business convenience is worse). The other areas I lived in -- Silicon Valley, Seattle suburb, Utah, various parts of Alabama -- were all complete and utter garbage for walking. They're very obviously not even trying.

nickjj 7y ago
Are you unable to walk around your neighborhood in SV, Seattle and other places? I live on Long Island (not NYC) but it's not hard to find places to walk around in safety. I put in 3-5 miles (roughly 6,000 - 10,000 steps going by Google) a day just aimlessly walking side streets for general exercise and clearing my mind. When I visited SV it didn't seem too bad downtown. Can't speak for the other places though. But if you want to put in the steps, you just need ground to walk on and preferably not be constantly dealing with highways (that would really suck).
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  Basic google tells me that your upper range (5 miles) is still only around 10k steps. You’ll need to walk another 60-70% more to achieve what they do, which is where much of the effort can be in.
  - nickjj 7y ago
    I've been going 3-5 miles for over 5 years because it makes me feel good. I never heard of these people or their habits until yesterday. By the way, if you can walk 5 miles effortlessly, you can probably walk an entire day with little breaks. I've done some 15+ mile walking sessions in NYC. By the end of it, it's really not bad if it's a nice day out (it can get ridiculously hot and cold in NYC).

chrischen 7y ago

Well this article seems to be pushing for more carbohydrate consumption and putting that increased level of calories from carbs at the same significance as the massively increased level of physical activity they have.

YUMad 7y ago

Dietary composition _is_ the key. No hunter-gatherer group has ever exceeded 50% of total caloric intake coming from plants, especially not from simple sugars.